Author Topic: Can someone identify this knot?  (Read 13070 times)

BlindSquirrel

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Can someone identify this knot?
« on: December 03, 2007, 09:39:41 PM »
I'm trying to replicate this knot...any guesses as to what it is?


in case this isn't showing (as it won't when I preview) you can down load it http://www.dualityentertainment.com/mike/XSWORD/XKNOT.jpg

KnotMe

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Re: Can someone identify this knot?
« Reply #1 on: December 04, 2007, 06:20:33 PM »
my kneejerk reaction is that it is a drawn knot with no real world analog, but i will have a scan through my tea bag knot books and see what I can turn up.  certainly it is not a standard Chinese-style decorative knot.

PatDucey

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Re: Can someone identify this knot?
« Reply #2 on: December 04, 2007, 08:53:50 PM »
I agree with Carol, nice art, but not something that can be tied.  Of course, I may be wrong.

Pat

turks head 54

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Re: Can someone identify this knot?
« Reply #3 on: December 05, 2007, 04:37:08 AM »
It is possible to tie this knot. ;D

However you would need to use several endless loops of cord. :'(

TH54

DerekSmith

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Re: Can someone identify this knot?
« Reply #4 on: December 05, 2007, 10:57:53 AM »
As a novice in the world of decoratives, could I ask those more skilled in this field to explain what they have seen in this sketch that suggests that this knot cannot be transposed to our physical 3D world?

Derek

PatDucey

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Re: Can someone identify this knot?
« Reply #5 on: December 05, 2007, 09:13:38 PM »
I just tried to follow one line, and I couldn't.  It didn't have a continous path through the knot.  Perhaps it coud be tied with several pieces of string to look like the artwork, but it probably wouldn't be secure.  There is also no structure to indicate how thick the center of the knot would be with all the loops coming in and going out.  The loop of line that surrounds the center doesn't appear to be connected to any other line.  The three loops around the sleeve appear to be drawn as continous, and not part of the knot.

There is always a problem in translating artwork into a real knot.  The "Live 8" concert a few months back is an example.  The artwork on the concert poster suggested a figure of 8 knot, but tied in string it was an overhand knot.  Decorative knotting on clothing often is sewn or glued on, and without the glue would fall apart into a clump of line.  Often the "vision" of the artist is only a suggestion of the real world, and out brain can see the concept the artist wanted to impress upon us, but in the real world, the vision is only a mirage.

Pat

KnotMe

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Re: Can someone identify this knot?
« Reply #6 on: December 06, 2007, 09:51:04 AM »
(1) the knot was not immediately recognizable as belonging to any family of decorative knots with which I am familiar (and i know quite a few 8) 8)
(2) the circle of cord around the middle was suspicious and doesn't entirely look possible except as a separate circle

that said, it has the aspect of a Japanese tea bag knot (searching for shifuku will get you much further than tea 8)

the mokko flower knot has 4 big loops, but the centre structure is very different and the 2 side petals are not so round.
the cherry blossom knot and bellflower knot have 5 petals, and 2 lines through the middle.  there is a bottom centre loop, but no corresponding top centre loop (for a semi-circle vs circle effect)
(kinda squashed, but in the top right corner of this image: http://www.geocities.co.jp/PowderRoom/4101/hanamusubi1.jpg, top view here: http://www.junku.fr/images/exlarge_pics/e_6254.jpg).

here's a couple of sites with a goodly number of pictures:
http://www.k4.dion.ne.jp/~shifuku/
http://blog.nakaji.moo.jp/?cid=25532

here's an amazon japan book listing:
http://www.amazon.co.jp/%E3%81%8F%E3%82%89%E3%81%97%E3%82%92%E6%A5%BD%E3%81%97%E3%82%80%E5%9B%9B%E5%AD%A3%E3%81%AE%E8%8A%B1%E7%B5%90%E3%81%B3-%E7%94%B0%E4%B8%AD-%E5%B9%B4%E5%AD%90/dp/4473032523/ref=sr_11_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1196928799&sr=11-1

Dan_Lehman

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Re: Can someone identify this knot?
« Reply #7 on: December 11, 2007, 08:35:21 PM »
Quote
However you would need to use several endless loops of cord.
Maybe you'd like to explain how to do that?  --for if you're talking about making the *petals*
with such loops, you have to show how to get endless loops interlocked!

(1) the knot was not immediately recognizable as belonging to any family of decorative knots with which I am familiar (and i know quite a few 8) 8)
(2) the circle of cord around the middle was suspicious and doesn't entirely look possible except as a separate circle
//
[.:.] my kneejerk reaction is that it is a drawn knot with no real world analog

I have quite the opposite reaction, as the illustration would be easier to make if it had nothing to try
to represent, yet it isn't so simply made.  I.p., note that of the 4 *petals*--N-E-S-W, name them--the E
one's legs enter resp. OVER / UNDER, and not both one way or t'other, which would be the simplistic
image.  And as for that supposed "circle", I think that if one scrutinizes the E side, you'll see that it's
NOT there, and one sees instead one of the wrapping lines beneath the flower-knot.  So, to my eye
on a quick glance, it appears that some real knot WAS attempted to be accurately drawn; there are
various places where what could've been more neatly shown as duplicate adjacent parts have some
slight variance (such as the two parts at the flower's center, and the wraps around the material which
are carefully shown to overlap).

Btw, I (and Brian Grimley & Nautile) have had quite a time trying to decipher the S(h)amisen strings-anchor
triple-eyed knot, w/o convincing success.  Now, that knot is visible in several photos of the instrument,
but nowhere have we (mostly BG, our Asian explorer, gem-finder) found instructions on how to tie this
--as though it's a secret art not to be divulged!  One can BUY the pre-tied knot structure for use (but we've
yet to do this, either.)

--dl*
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oldpete

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Re: Can someone identify this knot?
« Reply #8 on: December 12, 2007, 04:53:53 PM »
I am new to knotting but I also feel that the can be tyed, the nearest I have found to it (not really near enough) is the four petalled flower knot based on a reef (square) knot given on page 162 of George Russell Shaw's book on knots, with slight modification to that knot i have a knot that is very close to the one shown.

Znex

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Re: Can someone identify this knot?
« Reply #9 on: December 12, 2007, 09:39:43 PM »
Btw, I (and Brian Grimley & Nautile) have had quite a time trying to decipher the S(h)amisen strings-anchor
triple-eyed knot, w/o convincing success.  Now, that knot is visible in several photos of the instrument,
but nowhere have we (mostly BG, our Asian explorer, gem-finder) found instructions on how to tie this
--as though it's a secret art not to be divulged!  One can BUY the pre-tied knot structure for use (but we've
yet to do this, either.)


Forgive me, this is somewhat off topic but I have found a video of tying the Shamisen knot and just wanted to share. I have not tried to tie it yet, but it looks doable.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NXE9qeEwwGI&feature=related



« Last Edit: December 12, 2007, 09:43:23 PM by Znex »

squarerigger

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Re: Can someone identify this knot?
« Reply #10 on: December 13, 2007, 02:16:41 AM »
Also off-topic I am going to boast a little and say that I showed this one at our meeting last night (the shamisen) and unfortunately, without the instrument, it doesn't mean a whole lot to our rather practically-oriented folks.  I did show that it holds a toggle at the end of the instrument and that the lower loops engage there, with the three separate top loops being available for stringing the instrument.  Interesting, but having only one use, it was not given much attention.

SR

Tom

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Re: Can someone identify this knot?
« Reply #11 on: December 13, 2007, 12:10:30 PM »
Blimey! I've just had a look at the Shamisen knot tying video - does that win the prize as 'Most Complicated Knot with a Practical Purpose'? (and if not, what does?)
What a beautiful thing - which, of course, should not preclude it from being useful!

turks head 54

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Re: Can someone identify this knot?
« Reply #12 on: December 19, 2007, 06:53:44 AM »
As soon as I get time I'll take some photos of this knot being tied with several endless loops of cord.

TH54