Author Topic: Knot I have made requiring identification  (Read 8021 times)

cuesta

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Knot I have made requiring identification
« on: August 15, 2007, 02:33:54 PM »
Hello, My Name is Oscar Cuesta. I was reading a book on knots by Gordon Perry, called "Knots" and he mentioned the International Guild of Knot Tyers (IGKT) and how they identify new knots. I have never seen the knot that I have come up with illustrated or described in other knot books. I have seen other double loops but none that appear to be this one. if you could be so kind as to examine the method of tying it , it's shape and its utility, I would be most grateful. In lieu of this knot not existing, I have termed it the Lyndy Knot (possibly presumptious). I have attached this document with the steps demonstrating how to tie it.

Thanks,

Oscar

squarerigger

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Re: Knot I have made requiring identification
« Reply #1 on: August 15, 2007, 05:11:43 PM »
Hi Oscar,

Many thanks for sending us details of your tentative new knot.  You have described making it very well - have you looked at any caving or climbing books about knots to find it there when you were looking in other knot books?  You have talked a little about its having two loops - do you see this as being a knot used for climbing or for construction work or for arborist work (tree-trimming)?  Having the two loops be adjustable seems like a good idea on the face of it.  Do you have any examples of when and where it might be used in such a way that you need to adjust it?  How secure does it need to be when it is adjusted?  Is there a limit to what size line it can be used with and is there any limit on what type of line i.e. does it slip when using polypropylene or nylon?

Looking forward to hearing more from you...

SR

Dan_Lehman

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Re: Knot I have made requiring identification
« Reply #2 on: August 16, 2007, 06:40:58 AM »
I have never seen the knot that I have come up with illustrated or described in other knot books.
I have seen other double loops but none that appear to be this one.

Hello, Oscar!  I've not encountered the knot that you present, so at least I'll deem
it an ELFEK (Empircally Less Frequently Encountered Knot-structure).

Now, as to tying it:  your method suffers from requiring access to both (!) ends,
which you'll see aren't really needed (i.e., they could be e.g. each tied to some
object, miles away!)--the knot is "TIB" (Tiable In the Bight).

The knot can be seen as a Reverse Fig.9 2-eye loopknot, akin e.g. to the well-known
Bowline on the BIght (which is usually tied with what I jocularly call a "back-flip"
manuevre of taking a bight out around the entire knot).  Which is to say that one
can begin by making what you call "the two draped loops" and continue by
inserting the doubled bights (which needn't form a Cow/Girth hitch) through
the draped-wraps turns and then making the "back-flip" of the "single loop"
around the knot body.  --no need/use of ends, coming or going.

I don't think I'd trust the friction of the knot to keep the eyes from slipping,
if the "single loop" isn't snug to the knot body--though it probably will in
many situations (materials & forces).

And this general extension of loopknots is pretty much available to all extant
loopknots (and such extended knots are pretty well undisclosed, although
readily conceived--and so "new" ?!):  insert the (single) eye bight back into
the knot (partially) and do the back-flip, drawing out now two eyes.

Thanks for sharing this discovery!

--dl*
====

cuesta

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Re: Knot I have made requiring identification
« Reply #3 on: August 17, 2007, 01:30:37 AM »
SR,

Thanks for your interest. Yes I have looked in a number of caving, climbing sources and knot encyclopedias to determine if this knot was present. My personal usage with this knot has been rather limited. I am still examining how it performs practically in applications for securing, binding and possibly scaling. I am keen to examine some of the points you have mentioned regarding the rope size and rope materials. I will let you know how I get on.

Dan,

Thankyou for your thoughts regarding the possibilities and methods of tying this particular knot. There is quite a lot of information here that is very interesting. I am so glad that you have taken the time to examine and pull it apart to give quite a comprehensive critique. I would be most interested to see what other people thought the practicalities and uses for such a knot would be.

Regards

Oscar

cuesta

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Re: Knot I have made requiring identification
« Reply #4 on: August 17, 2007, 02:25:14 PM »
SR,Dan,

I would also like to submit a variant to the knot I posted yesterday which may also interest you. Please take a look at it and let me know what your thoughts are.

turks head 54

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Re: Knot I have made requiring identification
« Reply #5 on: August 22, 2007, 07:39:06 AM »
I have seen the variants of the Lyndy knot used around here
and been trying to learn it.

             turks head 54

DerekSmith

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Re: Knot I have made requiring identification
« Reply #6 on: August 22, 2007, 08:11:52 PM »
Steady on Cuesta,

One knot at a time -- PLEASE -- especially one with as much enigmatic challenge as the Lyndy knot.

At first look, I thought -- who needs a loop knot that has to be tied using the ends, then I saw how easy it was to tie it in the bight so that made it potentially usable.

Then I thought -- hang on ! it's only a double slipped twisted OH knot, it should slip -- so why doesn't it?

Then I tied it very slightly differently and it DID slip -- why?

I think I have worked out why, and this has given me a new insight into knot workings.  I will take some photos and post my thoughts in the next post.

KC, I think you will be interested in the workings of this little beauty.

As for uses -- an easy to tie adjusting loop knot in the bight, how about a tensioning adjuster for a trailer load, again, I will try to photo this use and then post it later.

Well done bringing us a real teaser of a knot, I am sure it will have many lessons yet to teach us.

Brian_Grimley

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Re: Knot I have made requiring identification
« Reply #7 on: August 27, 2007, 09:42:00 PM »
The Lyndy Knot, a note:

One form of Japanese tradition clothing, for men, is an open jacket. This jacket is held together by two cords. The two cords are knotted together.

In this particular example, one end of the two cords are joined together with a tassel. The free end of one cord is attached to the left side of the jacket and the free end of the other cord to the right side. The tassel is, obviously, in the middle. The "jacket knot" is tied with the two cords and has the same structure as the Lyndy Knot, with one difference. Your final tuck of the two ends so that, if the two loops are pulled, the single loop will not pull through, is not needed in the "jacket knot" and hence not used. 

If we look at the "jacket knot", worn on the jacket, one sees the round "rings" of the knot, the crossing parts are hidden against the chest. The double loops hang down and the tassel (your single loop) is pointing upward. The double loops are adjusted down so that only the tassel shows, i.e. no cord is visible above the "rings". The two ends of the "Lyndy Knot" are attached to the jacket - one to each side. I hope this "relative" of the Lyndy Knot is of interest to you.

Source: "Musubikata Zenshu" by Takeuchi, Motoyo, 1987, pg. 218. I can neither read nor speak Japanese so, unfortunately, I can not translate the name of the knot given by the author. I think that the title, "Musubikate Zenchu", can be freely and acceptably translated as "The Complete Book of Knots".   ;D

cuesta

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Re: Knot I have made requiring identification
« Reply #8 on: August 28, 2007, 12:34:39 AM »
Brian,

Thanks for your investigation.
Would it be possible to scan or photocopy the page you refer to in your post please. I would really like to see the knot firstly and also see the knot in this particular application.
Who is the publisher of Musubikata Zenshu?, I suppose that it may be out of print. I have had a quick look on google to find out this info but there are no references to it.

Regards

Oscar

Brian_Grimley

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Re: Knot I have made requiring identification
« Reply #9 on: August 28, 2007, 12:29:30 PM »
Hi Oscar,

You are welcome. Here is the information about the book "Musubikata Zenshu" from the bookstore from which I purchased it: http://www.sasugabooks.com/product_info.php?products_id=26157 .

I won't publically post another's creative work that is not public domain or without permission. However, if you email me, I will return a .jpg of the page for your reference and to illustrate the book's contents.

Cheers - Brian.

cuesta

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Re: Knot I have made requiring identification
« Reply #10 on: August 29, 2007, 12:30:04 PM »
Brian,

Thanks for your email with the details regarding the jacket knot. They are indeed very very similar. It's amazing that the two knots share so much in common. I have duplicated the knots and compared them and can see differences between them. Brian, I have also tied them left handed and right handed to see if indeed they reflect the same knot and I don't believe that they do. Having said that I think that it is the IGKT's call whether the Lyndy is the same as the jacket knot you have (amazingly so) referred to . It is not improbable that in the past , others have actually produced the same knot as the Lyndy. With all that said, Where to from here for this most enjoyable expedition?

Thanks

Oscar

Dan_Lehman

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Re: Knot I have made requiring identification
« Reply #11 on: August 29, 2007, 07:21:19 PM »
How about one of you guys with images of this Jacket knot posting SOMEthing that
others can see and assess--make your own (traced) sketch or tying of it and post
an image of that.  (Not that copying of published works' images is at all unseen in
some knot books!)

 :)

cuesta

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Re: Knot I have made requiring identification
« Reply #12 on: September 02, 2007, 11:33:19 AM »
Dan,

I have photographed the steps to tie the Jacket knot as described in "Musubikata Zenshu" by Takeuchi, Motoyo, 1987 kindly provided by Brian Grimley.

Please take a look and let me know your thoughts regarding how they differ. If the images are not clear enough let me know.

Regards

Oscar


Brian_Grimley

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Re: Knot I have made requiring identification
« Reply #13 on: September 02, 2007, 09:32:40 PM »
Hi cuesta,

Thank you for posting your instructions on tying the "jacket knot" from "Musubikata Zenshu".  The completed "Lyndy Knot" is a different knot than the "jacket knot". However, I think that when tying the "Lyndy Knot", if we stop at step 6 and dress and tighten the knot, the resulting knot is a mirror image of the "jacket knot". At that point, they are the same knot. Steps 7 & 8, of the "Lyndy Knot", make the "Lyndy Knot" a different knot from the "jacket knot".

The "Lyndy Knot" sure is interesting!!! - Brian.

DerekSmith

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Re: Knot I have made requiring identification
« Reply #14 on: September 04, 2007, 09:55:53 AM »

In this particular example, one end of the two cords are joined together with a tassel. The free end of one cord is attached to the left side of the jacket and the free end of the other cord to the right side.

Hi Brian,

Serious credit for having tracked this one down, and yes please, if you would be so kind as to email me the jpg I would appreciate it.

However, as ever, I have a problem of understanding which hopefully you can clarify for me.

In your description quoted above, the jacket sides are fixed together by two cords which are in turn joined by a tassel.  Two ends joined to the jacket and two ends joined together in the tassel -- i.e. no free ends.

If this is indeed the case, then the jacket sides are already joined and presumably the 'Jacket Knot' is used to shorten the cords and hold the jacket sides closed.  But again, if the sides are already joined and there are no ends, then it is not possible to tie the knot as Oscar shows in the images posted into reply #12 because step 4 requires the ends (and there are none) to be passed through the loop ??

So which bits have I misunderstood?

Are the ends (i.e. the non tassel ends) indeed free, in which case -- what is the purpose of the tassel and the knot if the cord is yet to be joined to the sides of the jacket?

If however the ends are 'fixed' to the jacket, and they have been more or less permanently joined by the central tassel, then the jacket will have to be put on by passing it over the head with the front loosely open, then the 'Jacket Knot' will need to be tied in the bight and its function will be to hold the two sides of the jacket closed.  Could this assumption be correct?

Essentially, the Lindy knot is (and without seeing the details, I must presume that the Jacket knot is likewise) a slipped double strand overhand knot 'with a twist'.  A slipped double strand overhand would be very easy to tie in the jacket situation -- simply grasp the tassel in one hand and slide the other hand along the two cords to the jacket to pull the two jacket sides together and forming a doubled strand of cord.  Then tie an overhand knot near to the jacket and slip the tassel end as a slipped loop back through the knot for easy untying (by pulling on the tassel).  It is an equally simple step to convert from the simple slipped double strand overhand to the more decorative jacket knot.  Make the double strand slipped overhand, but before tightening the knot, make a twist in the overhand loop and pass the slipped loop through this twist.  When well dressed in a hansom cord this simple slip fastener has an aesthetic beauty to it, which I could imagine would be well acceptable to the style conscious traditional Japanese, whilst retaining the practicality of ease of adjustment  of jacket tightness.

Another question springs to mind though -- why on earth join the two cords at the tassel?  Joining the cords makes the wearer have to step into the jacket or put it on over the head.  By contrast, leaving them separate with a tassel on the end of each, allows the coat to be put on over the shoulders, yet still allows the 'Jacket knot' to be used to close the jacket by holding the two tassels as if they were one.

From my studies so far, there are four dressings of the Lindy Knot (which can of course be tied in the bight, just as the jacket knot) -- The full slipped version, this I believe would be used for the Jacket Knot -- Two partial slipping versions, these offer Lindy Knot functionality in good friction cord -- and one one-directional good gripping knot, this offers the 'USP' of the Lindy Knot i.e. an adjustable double loop knot that does not slip.

While I do not hold that creating a knot (i.e. tying it) by different methods creates a different knot, nor do I hold that using a knot for different purposes makes it a different knot, I do hold that dressing a knot differently can (and often does) make it a different knot.  On that premise, there are four versions of the Lindy Knot, one of which may well be the Jacket knot.  Unfortunately, these variations are buried within the core of the knot and it is almost impossible to identify them unless you can loosen and study the detailed internal structure.

Although Oscar has not stipulated the dressing that gives this special feature, his method of tying 'usually' leads to this dressing form (although it can also lead to either of the two middling gripping forms which would not be noticed in reasonable friction cord).  Also, in his initial description he claims the functionality of 'adjustable non slip loops'.  I think it would be reasonable to credit Oscar with the non slipping variant, while leaving the easily slipping 'Jacket Knot' variant to a much earlier provenance.