Poll

How Many Degrees is a Round Turn?

270 deg.
360 deg.
450 deg.
540 deg.
i heard it was 85 deg. in Florida today?

Author Topic: Poll on Round Turn description  (Read 16715 times)

Dan_Lehman

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Re: Poll on Round Turn description
« Reply #45 on: January 26, 2011, 08:38:06 PM »
You cast a question that nOne has ever asked --or can you cite some

Fail.  YOU have spoken like that:

http://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=1150.msg7863#msg7863
4.  timber hitch
For improved security, strength (my surmise), and staying in place, make a round turn (or 2)
of end around the S.Part before dogging the end back around itself--kind of a friction-hitch working.


With the powers vested in me at birth, I disavow myself ... .   ::)

Quote
You're talking about adding 2 x 360 degrees of turn, not 2 x 540 degrees.

Here's another experienced knot tier (Inkanyezi) who speaks like that:

http://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=1379.msg9736#msg9736
...I added a round turn under the half hitch...

He's talking about adding 360 degrees of turn, not 540 degrees.

Touche'!  --good find.

But, I can assure you that my thinking  is contrary to your
interpretation, or your break-down of items.  On Ink, well, that
indeed fits precisely your sense.
But he is but one guy whom I'll jokingly dismiss as non-English-native
(nevermind he handles it better than most...), and ... his book is yet
to arrive.
Point:  you have still the entire archive* of angling-knots literature using
"turns" synonymous with "wraps" and nary a peep of "round turn" to
try to explain away or run contrary to!
 (*my conjecture w/o knowledge of the contrary).

And there is some bit of imprecise skipping of fine points  of counting
in all of this : i.e., that, unlike your urging, folks who would speak of
making "two turns", say, would mean "round turn" as 540deg in effect,
and not (same verbal equivalence, yes) 360 as some strict rule might
say; and, in fact, the result after joining the tail to the SPart will of course
pull things beyond the strictly interpreted  180deg, which would leave them
parallel and separated by a distance equal to the diameter of the object
around which the line is (round)turning.  Go past this to "3 turns" and
you won't have even any apparent equivalence --they will mean an added
360 per their "turn", even though they'll acknowledge 180 (which one
might see more nearly 270) for the first.

.:. No one says "make 3 turns" to mean what Ashley defines/illustrates
as a round turn --but in your hard interpretation that 3x180 is just so.

And "Round Turn & 2 HH" isn't going to become "Turn + Round Turn & ...",
but I take your reasoning about the implicit "turn"; however, if one were to
build upon such reasoning, problems would arise (e.g., "round turn and turn
around SPart
" : are you then possibly building a Cow or version of Rolling h.?
--the latter requiring your implicit "turn", the former being more strict).

You logic & math aren't bad,
just the wrong tools (if used alone, untempered) for
addressing this language.

And I don't see some (re-)definition of such common simple
terms as solving confusion very well, in contrast to the less
elegant use of some hard digits to quantify meaning.
"several turns"  is going to be understood, naturally, as you
would want "several round turns"  to be --it would be spitting
into the wind to try to make it otherwise (though success in
the immediate region of few-turns hitches might invite some
hope).

--dl*
====

roo

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Re: Poll on Round Turn description
« Reply #46 on: January 26, 2011, 10:56:38 PM »

2) How many degrees in a turn?  A turn being half a round turn?
Who said a turn is half of a round turn?

Quote
You really need to ask that?
Why is asking the number of degrees in a turn an invalid question?
Quote
Go ahead and ignore what we're saying and "believe"(!) the irrefutable, glowing bible of knots.
One source might be refutable, but the evidence is all piling up on the side of a turn being 360 and a round turn being 540.  It's nothing personal.  It's just a matter of language usage.

Quote
I'm fine with us not agreeing.  I couldn't care less.  But don't ****ing insult me.
Where was the insult?  I quoted your own words with no malicious intent.
« Last Edit: January 26, 2011, 10:57:40 PM by roo »
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roo

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Re: Poll on Round Turn description
« Reply #47 on: January 26, 2011, 11:15:33 PM »
Quote
Now, do I believe the the ropework references, or do I believe two self-admitted knot neophytes?
--It's insulting to have your word refuted based upon assumptions on your character.
Being a neophyte in no way reflects negatively on your character.  I think highly of your character.  

I do believe that some benevolent neglect of this thread is a good idea.  It's not worth inflaming feelings in any of my friends here (you and knot4u included).
« Last Edit: January 26, 2011, 11:16:16 PM by roo »
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knot4u

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Re: Poll on Round Turn description
« Reply #48 on: January 26, 2011, 11:33:11 PM »
...but the evidence is all piling up on the side of a turn being 360 and a round turn being 540.  It's nothing personal.  It's just a matter of language usage...

???  Evidence is piling up?

According to what I've seen, there is only one diagram that is causing this confusion that a Round Turn is 540 degrees (it's not).  The diagram is ABOK #41 (or any diagram mimicking that).  In that diagram, the Round Turn is actually 360 degrees, and there is an implied 180 degrees turn.

In every other instance of a Round Turn, it clearly makes no sense to define a Round Turn as 540 degrees.  As just a few examples, the definition of 540 degrees clearly breaks down for the following:

-Two Round Turns (ABOK #42)
-Three Round Turns, and so on
-ABOK #36
-ABOK #37
« Last Edit: January 27, 2011, 01:10:50 AM by knot4u »

PwH

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Re: Poll on Round Turn description
« Reply #49 on: January 27, 2011, 02:11:05 AM »
The Captain is always right, and on my boat a 'Turn' on that bollard is 360 with you hanging on the end to surge the boat to a stop. Two 'Turns' is twice that to increase the braking power. Three 'Turns' gets you a dressing down for overstressing the rope, the bollard and the boat. A Round Turn means you take the rope all the way round the bollard (360) and bring it back round to itself (180) preparatory to tie off (540). So N Round Turns is just N Turns plus 180 to get the working part back to the standing part.

If half the effort expended here went into something useful like the Improved ABOK Index it would be finished by now and out there for all to use so we can find all the 'Turns' he ever mentioned.

So in the end call it what you like but make sure your crew know what it is on your boat.

Happy knotting

PwH
« Last Edit: January 27, 2011, 02:20:13 AM by PwH »
Is a Round Turn just a Grossly Overfed Seabird?

alpineer

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Re: Poll on Round Turn description
« Reply #50 on: January 27, 2011, 03:50:53 AM »
Thank you for this description PwH.

alpineer

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Re: Poll on Round Turn description
« Reply #51 on: January 27, 2011, 04:13:00 AM »
On semantics, replacing the term Two Roundturns with the term Double Roundturn might help remove some of the offense suffered by some/one.

alpineer

PwH

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Re: Poll on Round Turn description
« Reply #52 on: January 27, 2011, 11:25:39 AM »
You're  welcome Alpineer. The sticking point seems to be the combination of the turn (360) and the half turn (180). The first RT has both (540) but second and subsequent ones have only an additional 360 each.

 It's the extra 180 that converts any sized stack of Turns (where the two ends leave the stack in opposite directions on the same side) into the same number of RT's ( where the two ends leave the stack on opposite sides in the same direction ). So an extra 180 converts N Turns to N RTs, and conversely makes N RTs into N+1 Turns.

The phrase 'Two Round Turns' still works for me as it just means 2 x 360+180 to bring the rope back 'round' to itself.

   Hope that hasn't just confused us all again!

Cheers, PwH

Alternatively a Round Turn could just be a grossly overfed seabird?
« Last Edit: January 27, 2011, 11:56:16 AM by PwH »
Is a Round Turn just a Grossly Overfed Seabird?

PwH

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Re: Poll on Round Turn description
« Reply #53 on: January 27, 2011, 12:12:07 PM »
So, further to the above, 180 gives us a half turn or loop( as in 'loop knot' eg bowline).

270 is a 3/4 turn.

360 gives us a 'Turn' or 'Full Turn'.

360+180 = 540 bringing the rope back around to itself to give us a single 'Round Turn' or possibly an 'Around Turn'.

 540+180=720 giving us two full turns

720+180 gives us ........

Etc etc

Make sense?

Cheers , PwH
« Last Edit: January 27, 2011, 12:17:56 PM by PwH »
Is a Round Turn just a Grossly Overfed Seabird?

Joe McNicholas

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Re: Poll on Round Turn description
« Reply #54 on: February 07, 2011, 07:43:12 AM »
A full turn is 360? . (Period)