Poll

How Many Degrees is a Round Turn?

270 deg.
360 deg.
450 deg.
540 deg.
i heard it was 85 deg. in Florida today?

Author Topic: Poll on Round Turn description  (Read 16737 times)

squarerigger

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Re: Poll on Round Turn description
« Reply #30 on: January 26, 2011, 02:50:32 AM »
This is one of the reasons why I thought it important to have a unique language that describes things accurately and without question.  We could describe a Round Turn as being X many wraps or we could say that the WE of the line is continued from its starting point in approaching the RT + 2HH from the SP by moving through 540 degrees parallel to the SP through the point of attachment and is then cast....etc.  As for the Buntline Hitch, the WE of the line moves from the SP through 180 degrees parallel to the SP and is then formed into a Clove Hitch around the SP by casting....etc.

I vote for just naming the number of degrees that are intended to be turned from the SP and doing away with such answers as have roused the hackles of all who are responding with such fervor!  No poll needed (other than to point out the folly of taking polls on an empty stomach!).   ;D

SR

Dan_Lehman

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Re: Poll on Round Turn description
« Reply #31 on: January 26, 2011, 07:39:25 AM »
Back to the original question, how many degrees is a Round Turn?

For about the fifth time, if someone says "add 3 Round Turns", then the correct response is to add 3 x 360 degrees of turn.  There is no mind trick, philosophical debate or new definition needed.  There is no situation where Round Turn means 540 degrees.  Again, in the knot "Round Turn and Two Half Hitches", the initial 180 degrees is implied, and the Round Turn is still 360 degrees.

How many times 0 will get you more than that?

Wow, you must be trying to answer the question here
--2 pages of ... nothing.

You cast a question that nOne has ever asked --or can you cite some
literature in which your repeated "add 3 round turns"  is actually
given?!  Because except for you, HERE, I don't think anyone has
spoken like that; were what-you-think-is-asked-for actually wanted,
they'd say "add 3 turns" or maybe (which you'd prefer) "3 wraps".
Think about it:  where in knotting are there cases with lots of *turns*
such that someone MIGHT just utter your strawman?  --ANGLING,
right.  And do you EVER see those knot-tying instructions saying
to "make 4-7 round turns" ?  (no)  What they say is to make
"turns" or "wraps" --an equating that you deny, but there it is.

So, in fact, the "round turn & ..." sure has seemed to denote
540 degrees (roughly, ignoring the extra 90deg that might seem
implied to reach across the circle to the SPart's tangent line).

" It's just math, and frankly is not difficult math."

No, it's not; it's language usage, and the investigation needs to
lay that out and see what sense can be found, and figure it it's
consistent & solid enough to build upon, or is some redress is
wanted.


--dl*
====


alpineer

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Re: Poll on Round Turn description
« Reply #32 on: January 26, 2011, 07:46:02 AM »
Hey, I smell 2 years and 900 posts later a la rockclimbing.com. :D

alpineer

knot4u

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Re: Poll on Round Turn description
« Reply #33 on: January 26, 2011, 08:02:43 AM »
Back to the original question, how many degrees is a Round Turn?

For about the fifth time, if someone says "add 3 Round Turns", then the correct response is to add 3 x 360 degrees of turn.  There is no mind trick, philosophical debate or new definition needed.  There is no situation where Round Turn means 540 degrees.  Again, in the knot "Round Turn and Two Half Hitches", the initial 180 degrees is implied, and the Round Turn is still 360 degrees.

How many times 0 will get you more than that?

Wow, you must be trying to answer the question here
--2 pages of ... nothing.

You cast a question that nOne has ever asked --or can you cite some
literature in which your repeated "add 3 round turns"  is actually
given?!  Because except for you, HERE, I don't think anyone has
spoken like that

Fail.  YOU have spoken like that:

http://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=1150.msg7863#msg7863
4.  timber hitch
For improved security, strength (my surmise), and staying in place, make a round turn (or 2)
of end around the S.Part before dogging the end back around itself--kind of a friction-hitch working.


You're talking about adding 2 x 360 degrees of turn, not 2 x 540 degrees.

Here's another experienced knot tier (Inkanyezi) who speaks like that:

http://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=1379.msg9736#msg9736
...I added a round turn under the half hitch...

He's talking about adding 360 degrees of turn, not 540 degrees.
« Last Edit: January 26, 2011, 08:06:22 AM by knot4u »

roo

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Re: Poll on Round Turn description
« Reply #34 on: January 26, 2011, 04:03:13 PM »
lol.  I can't believe this has gone on for so long.  But he is right.  A round turn is 360?.  To say that no one has ever said to make three round turns in a knot is missing the point.  

What he's saying is that if you agree that taking 3 round turns gives you 3 x 360?, then you're saying that taking 1 round turn is 360?.  Saying a round turn is 540? is ridiculous, since taking 3 round turns does not give you 3 x 540?.  That would give you 4.5 round turns.  I don't know why that's so hard to understand.  The 180? that's being included in the addition is not part of the round turn: it's the consequence of moving to the next step of the knot and is, as knot4u has said, implied.  
When people talk of adding circles, they would properly say add "turns".  Lazy speech doesn't negate what a round turn is.

I'll ask you, too:  How many degrees are there in a turn?  Knot4u isn't sure.

It comes down to this:  The Ashley Book of Knots and other ropework references define a round turn differently than you and knot4u.  Now, do I believe the the ropework references, or do I believe two self-admitted knot neophytes?

http://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=1960.msg13655#msg13655
http://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=2093.msg15002#msg15002
« Last Edit: January 26, 2011, 04:11:39 PM by roo »
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knot4u

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Re: Poll on Round Turn description
« Reply #35 on: January 26, 2011, 04:39:46 PM »
lol.  I can't believe this has gone on for so long.  But he is right.  A round turn is 360?.  To say that no one has ever said to make three round turns in a knot is missing the point.  

What he's saying is that if you agree that taking 3 round turns gives you 3 x 360?, then you're saying that taking 1 round turn is 360?.  Saying a round turn is 540? is ridiculous, since taking 3 round turns does not give you 3 x 540?.  That would give you 4.5 round turns.  I don't know why that's so hard to understand.  The 180? that's being included in the addition is not part of the round turn: it's the consequence of moving to the next step of the knot and is, as knot4u has said, implied.  
When people talk of adding circles, they would properly say add "turns".  Lazy speech doesn't negate what a round turn is.

I'll ask you, too:  How many degrees are there in a turn?  Knot4u isn't sure.

It comes down to this:  The Ashley Book of Knots and other ropework references define a round turn differently than you and knot4u.  Now, do I believe the the ropework references, or do I believe two self-admitted knot neophytes?

http://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=1960.msg13655#msg13655
http://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=2093.msg15002#msg15002

I guess it takes a new person (who also has over 15 years engineering experience) to expose Ashley's non-workable definition.  What we have here is a fine example of group think.  It's otherwise smart people ignoring plain truths just so that they don't venture outside the group.  Not comparing myself to Einstein, but note that Einstein exposed fallacies of hundred of years of Newtonian physics in order to formulate his theories of Relativity.

knot4u

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Re: Poll on Round Turn description
« Reply #36 on: January 26, 2011, 04:54:16 PM »
ABOK #36 shows a Round Turn that includes about 360 degrees.
ABOK #42 shows Two Round Turns that include about 2 x 360 degrees with 180 degrees that are implied.
ABOK #37 shows a Round Turn plus an Elbow as being about 540 degrees.
ABOK #40 shows a Single Turn as being about 180 degrees.

I guess the "experts" here need to study ABOK a little bit more, or maybe don't refer to Ashley anymore.
« Last Edit: January 26, 2011, 05:21:58 PM by knot4u »

roo

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Re: Poll on Round Turn description
« Reply #37 on: January 26, 2011, 05:23:34 PM »
ABOK #36 shows a Round Turn that is 360 degrees.

ABOK #42 shows Two Round Turns that include 2 x 360 degrees with 180 degrees that are implied.

ABOK #37, Ashley shows a Round Turn plus an Elbow as being about 540 degrees.

ABOK #40, Ashley shows a Single Turn as being about 180 degrees.

I guess the "experts" here need to study ABOK a little bit more.
The problem with your interpretation here is that Ashley is talking in about the tangling of anchor lines due to drift of the vessel.  The context of terminology is different.  If you look a few inches down the page, you'll see the turn and round turn structures that are being discussed here regarding wraps around a spar.
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knot4u

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Re: Poll on Round Turn description
« Reply #38 on: January 26, 2011, 05:25:29 PM »
ABOK #36 shows a Round Turn that is 360 degrees.

ABOK #42 shows Two Round Turns that include 2 x 360 degrees with 180 degrees that are implied.

ABOK #37, Ashley shows a Round Turn plus an Elbow as being about 540 degrees.

ABOK #40, Ashley shows a Single Turn as being about 180 degrees.

I guess the "experts" here need to study ABOK a little bit more.
The problem with your interpretation here is that Ashley is talking in about the tangling of anchor lines due to drift of the vessel.  The context of terminology is different.  If you look a few inches down the page, you'll see the turn and round turn structures that are being discussed here regarding wraps around a spar.

Again, ABOK #42 shows Two Round Turns that include 2 x 360 degrees with 180 degrees that are implied.

You're running out of ways a round this, pun intented...

I also notice you ignored Ashley's description of a "single turn".
« Last Edit: January 26, 2011, 05:33:10 PM by knot4u »

roo

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Re: Poll on Round Turn description
« Reply #39 on: January 26, 2011, 05:43:50 PM »

Again, ABOK #42 shows Two Round Turns that include 2 x 360 degrees with 180 degrees that are implied.

You're running out of ways a round this, pun intented...

I also notice you ignored Ashley's description of a "single turn".

The turn makes a  complete trip around the spar, as is consistent with the dictionary definition given earlier.  I think you don't like the way Ashley has drawn his diagram.  If you think the description is ambiguous, you are free to use the dictionary definition of a turn being 360 degrees.

I agree that the Two Round Turn structure is 900 degrees.  See:
http://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=2797.msg16509#msg16509
« Last Edit: January 26, 2011, 05:48:44 PM by roo »
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knot4u

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Re: Poll on Round Turn description
« Reply #40 on: January 26, 2011, 05:49:37 PM »

Again, ABOK #42 shows Two Round Turns that include 2 x 360 degrees with 180 degrees that are implied.

You're running out of ways a round this, pun intented...

I also notice you ignored Ashley's description of a "single turn".

The turn makes a  complete trip around the spar, as is consistent with the dictionary definition given earlier.  I think you don't like the way Ashley has drawn his diagram.  If you think the description is ambiguous, you are free to use the dictionary definition of a turn being 360 degrees.

I agree that the Two Round Turn structure is 900 degrees.  See:
http://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=2797.msg16509#msg16509

LOL, that's super confusing.  Let's all ignore ABOK and conform to Roo's world.  In order for that to make sense, I have to ignore your definition of a Round Turn being 540 degrees.
« Last Edit: January 26, 2011, 05:57:12 PM by knot4u »

roo

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Re: Poll on Round Turn description
« Reply #41 on: January 26, 2011, 05:56:43 PM »
.  What happened to your definition of a Round Turn being 540 degrees?
Nothing happened to it.  A round turn is not two round turns, nor is two round turns double the degrees of a round turn.  Please explain your confusion.
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knot4u

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Re: Poll on Round Turn description
« Reply #42 on: January 26, 2011, 05:58:54 PM »
.  What happened to your definition of a Round Turn being 540 degrees?
Nothing happened to it.  A round turn is not two round turns, nor is two round turns double the degrees of a round turn.  Please explain your confusion.

My confusion that what you're saying is not consistent with the ABOK references I posted.  I can't tell somebody a Round Turn equals 540 degrees and then expect to make sense out of the ABOK references I posted.  That's because a Round Turn is not 540 degrees.

roo

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Re: Poll on Round Turn description
« Reply #43 on: January 26, 2011, 06:02:38 PM »
.  What happened to your definition of a Round Turn being 540 degrees?
Nothing happened to it.  A round turn is not two round turns, nor is two round turns double the degrees of a round turn.  Please explain your confusion.

My confusion that what you're saying is not consistent with the ABOK references I posted.  I can't tell somebody a Round Turn equals 540 degrees and then expect to make sense out of the ABOK references I posted.  That's because a Round Turn is not 540 degrees.
Round Turn Structure (#41) and Two Round Turns Structure (#42) from the Ashley Book of Knots and (second image) Turn and Round Turn from the Complete Book of Sailing Knots by Geoffrey Budworth and (third image)  definitions from the Army Field Manual FM 5-125, US Army:
« Last Edit: January 28, 2011, 01:28:54 AM by roo »
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Dan_Lehman

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Re: Poll on Round Turn description
« Reply #44 on: January 26, 2011, 07:57:23 PM »
Hey, I smell 2 years and 900 posts later a la rockclimbing.com. :D

alpineer

And even THAT is yet "TBContinued" !!  ::)
(If only we can tie this into the EDK & equalizing anchors somehow ...)

Touche' !!

 :D :D :D

(and it's getting all the more RC.com-like with someone's finger stuck
on the Quote button (lest these gems of iteration be lost) !)