Poll

How Many Degrees is a Round Turn?

270 deg.
360 deg.
450 deg.
540 deg.
i heard it was 85 deg. in Florida today?

Author Topic: Poll on Round Turn description  (Read 16739 times)

KC

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Poll on Round Turn description
« on: January 07, 2007, 12:05:31 AM »
Given that if a line continues in it's same, straight direction is Zer0 degrees deviation, and when same line takes a giant U and returns on same pairallell path as 180deg. deviation- 

How many degrees before we call it a Round Turn?

270 - Get past a Turn and your legal

360 - A full circle around host and contiuing in original direction

450 -  Same plus some more will be where we start to describe a Round Turn

540 - A full circle around and headed back in same direction a Single / Simple Turn would be heading






Is your answer one of visual or mechanical logic?
« Last Edit: January 07, 2007, 12:06:57 AM by KC »
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Dan_Lehman

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Re: Poll on Round Turn description
« Reply #1 on: January 07, 2007, 05:20:58 AM »
This points out one of the knotting-nomenclature problems/issues.
Considering the oft'-given "Round Turn & 2 Half-hitches", the
answer seems to be 540 (= 180+360); given the "Round Turn
Bowline" it is 360 (= 360--an additional full turn).

Likely a way out is to have a term "<degree>-turn" put to use:
e.g., "take a 540deg. turn" !?  One can consider that part of
the actual turning of line in a knot is implied by the next
point it must go--i.e., that the term "turn"/"round turn" gets
the rope only part way around, but then the requirement
to tie to the SPart, say, implies a further turning (which
shouldn't however be seen as part of the "turn" term).

I vote for the Arctic Tern, which might need help if it keeps
being 85deg (70+deg here, DC) in January!

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KC

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Re: Poll on Round Turn description
« Reply #2 on: January 07, 2007, 04:55:48 PM »
i think 360 gives greatest increase in force (moving in 90degree incremeants).  The completiion of the turn to make it push back into itself on opposite side giving not just friction from the footprint of contact; but then also increasing the friction of said footprint by this choking collar in forms where both ends are pulled actively or just 1 actively and one passivley/ siezed so only responding to the other pull.

But, then i further like adding next incremeant of 90 to hit 450; to further define a Crossed Turn as RT; crossed on self; Hitch as same pulled in opposite direction(whereby Crossed Turn has greater force Standing under lessor force Bitters, and Hitch is same form but reversed force flow thru rope device to place a pinch of the greater Standing bearing down on the lesser Bitters).  Whereby, a Hitch is kinda an Underhand Loop on host/mount; and a Crossed Turn is an Overhand Loop on host/mount.  In Equal and Opposites view; a Hitch/Underhand Loop is a CrossedTurn/Overhand Loop to it's Equal and Opposite pull(like in Bends etc.)

Am looking at doing a glossary page; of my version , of splitting these hairs and defining these components; that are seperate modules of mechainics to be grouped together in different knot forms; but to carry the principals of their module's mechanics; as the force traces from 1 module to the next in the lacing.

In the Distel example from climbing i see your definition of a Coil as 1 mechanic; then the preceding (to the loading) Half Hitch as a seperate mechanic.  All Coil modules imparting similair mechanics to the knots that contain them and all Halfs same for their charachteristics.  This could define the knot lacing and the knot mechanics etc. in this module view for understanding tying, inspecting and understanding mechanics of use and choice for use etc.

But; the 540 would seem the most popular definition; but from a visual and not mechanical point of 'view'?   Anyway, jsut the name of this place implies this is the place and peoples to ask!
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Willeke

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Re: Poll on Round Turn description
« Reply #3 on: January 07, 2007, 05:11:25 PM »
As a decorative knottyer I do not really have an opinion about the round turn problem, but as someone writing instructions it is needed to have a good picture to refer to.
So when I find one in the books or on the web I look and see what others call the things.
Here is a link to one of those pictures: http://www.66thlondon.org/knots.html

As far as I can see they call the 360o or 450o and on in the same direction a turn, and the 540o round turn.

If my memory works this is about the most common way to describe them.

Willeke
« Last Edit: January 07, 2007, 05:14:27 PM by Willeke »
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KC

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Re: Poll on Round Turn description
« Reply #4 on: January 09, 2007, 10:19:01 PM »
Such confusion on my part and others is the reason i ask.
Wikipedia


As far as i know a Turn is just a U shape/ bight on a mount.  A lot of foks i think take what i call 540 as a RT, but at 360, we start to get rope pushing back into self to form an increase in friction just not from the friction area and textures etc., but from some mechanichs of the choke ring itself i think; for more than the usual incremeant of friction increase that we may see from an increase of each 10 degrees or whatever.  If i understood roight, both you and Gordon had question about a straight line being Zer0 degrees.  i'm trying in my own fumbling way to categorize etc.; to have a comon language for making/ drawing etc.  And, in geometry i guess they say a line is 180 degrees as an angle.  It would be best to go with what everyone understood as common base.  But, here i will wish to name things in forms that will carry over from visual to mechanical expressions consistently.

i wish to break the knots down into componenets to identify, tie and understand workings, uses etc.; but all from same model/ shorthand of modular components/ commonali-ties.

In diagram below; 1st part, if both A and B are pulled; there is not 360 degrees of pressure on the mount, but rather 180.  At 12 oclock position, there is no pressure on mount; with most pressure at 6 o'clock, equally and oppositely from initiating pulls.  At 3 and 9 there is less pressure into mount, and more directional force around mount.  5 & 7 o'clock have about as much pressure as each other, a little less than the maximum at 6.

In the 2nd part of the diagram, A is pulled alone, and B must be tucked to secure.  You coauld either take B and continue around CCW and tuck in region 6 or go CCW to A and BackHand Hitch around and then contiune around CW to tuck in region 6.  Region 6/ 6o'clock having the most pinching direction and pressure into mount.  But, we also have rotational forces.  So, i'd tuck at 5 in convex.   At 6 tucked we would be in most pressure, but due to any rotation, could be pulled to 7 etc.  From 6, 7 is A)downhill and B) moving to less pressure; both reliefs that the forces will seek.

Region 5 is same pressure, almost maximum pressure; but any rotation element would have to work the Bitters from 5 to 6.  From 5; 6 is A) uphill and B) more pressure.  i figure 5 is more secure, because these are not reliefs, but increases; and the forces will look to decrease/ find path of least resistance, not more resis-stance.

These are just some of the things that keep me awake at night sometimes; trying to understand and see how to break down these things into components; that can be rebuilt in diffeent ways and have the attributes of their elemeants; as any other branch of study.




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knot4u

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Re: Poll on Round Turn description
« Reply #5 on: January 25, 2011, 07:41:42 PM »
Given that if a line continues in it's same, straight direction is Zer0 degrees deviation, and when same line takes a giant U and returns on same pairallell path as 180deg. deviation-  

How many degrees before we call it a Round Turn?

270 - Get past a Turn and your legal

360 - A full circle around host and contiuing in original direction

450 -  Same plus some more will be where we start to describe a Round Turn

540 - A full circle around and headed back in same direction a Single / Simple Turn would be heading






Is your answer one of visual or mechanical logic?

It's disappointing that 75% of the people so far voted 540 degrees.  The correct answer is 360 degrees.  Here's why:

When somebody says "add another Round Turn", they're talking about adding another 360 degrees, NOT 540 degrees.  Think about it.  Do you still not get it?  Here's another example...

If the person says "add 3 more Round Turns" and then you add 3 x 540 degrees, then that person has a right to yell at you for being an idiot.  If instead you add 3 x 360 degrees (aka, 3 loops), then you will be doing the correct thing.  Got it now?  Good, now let's move on to yet another example...

Consider the well known Round Turn Plus Two Half Hitches.  In that knot, the "Round Turn" technically includes an implied 180 degrees Turn plus a 360 degrees Round Turn, but who wants to say all that?  The first 180 degrees Turn is implied in that, just like it is in just about every hitch.  Think about the Slipped Buntline.  It has an implied 180 degrees of turn around the object.  Do you still not get it?  OK, let's try something else...

Someone may have said above that 180 degrees is a straight rope.  That's incorrect.  Come on.  Think about it.  If 180 degrees is a straight rope (it's not), then what is 90 degrees?  Don't hurt your brain by thinking too deeply about this.  A straight rope has 0 degrees of turn.  A rope that has 90 degrees of turn has an end pointing at a right angle relative to the original direction.  A rope that has 180 degrees of turn has an end pointing in the opposite direction of the original direction.  A rope that has 360 degrees of turn has an end pointing again to the original direction.
« Last Edit: January 25, 2011, 11:55:02 PM by knot4u »

Knotman

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Re: Poll on Round Turn description
« Reply #6 on: January 25, 2011, 10:18:50 PM »
Ashley describes a turn as 360 and 540 as a round turn (40 & 41).  This is what I've always thought (since my scouting days and learning the round turn and two half hitches); however, maybe it can be argued that the round turn starts from 361 degrees and finishes at 540, after which a second round turn commences.

Darren

roo

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Re: Poll on Round Turn description
« Reply #7 on: January 25, 2011, 10:27:55 PM »
The correct answer is 360 degrees.  Here's why:

When somebody says "add another Round Turn", they're talking about adding another 360 degrees, NOT 540 degrees.
Maybe they should have said "turn".  Anyway, the above statement is circular logic (no pun intended).  It is 360 because they're talking about 360?  Hmmm.

Let's not re-invent the dictionary:
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/turn

TURN (as opposed to round turn)

81.
a passing or twisting of one thing around another, as of a rope around a mast.

83.
a single circular or convoluted shape, as of a coiled or wound rope.
« Last Edit: January 25, 2011, 10:35:12 PM by roo »
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knot4u

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Re: Poll on Round Turn description
« Reply #8 on: January 25, 2011, 11:09:03 PM »
The correct answer is 360 degrees.  Here's why:

When somebody says "add another Round Turn", they're talking about adding another 360 degrees, NOT 540 degrees.
Maybe they should have said "turn".  Anyway, the above statement is circular logic (no pun intended).  It is 360 because they're talking about 360?  Hmmm.

Let's not re-invent the dictionary:
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/turn

TURN (as opposed to round turn)

81.
a passing or twisting of one thing around another, as of a rope around a mast.

83.
a single circular or convoluted shape, as of a coiled or wound rope.


How about let's not reinvent math.  I'm not sure what your answer is, but please answer this with a number:  If someone says "add 3 Round Turns", how many degrees of turn are you going to add?  I'll be adding 3 x 360 degrees of turn.
« Last Edit: January 25, 2011, 11:17:48 PM by knot4u »

roo

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Re: Poll on Round Turn description
« Reply #9 on: January 25, 2011, 11:18:35 PM »
How about let's not reinvent trigonometry.  I'm not sure what your answer is, but if someone says "add 3 Round Turns"
I guess you missed it the first time around:  Maybe they should have said "add three turns" to indicate adding 3 circles of rope.  

A round turn is the name of a structure of rope, it is not a unit of measurement such that adding a round turn and a round turn equals two round turns (it doesn't).  Adding the curvature from two bowlines does not give you a double bowline, either.
« Last Edit: January 28, 2011, 06:22:22 PM by roo »
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knot4u

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Re: Poll on Round Turn description
« Reply #10 on: January 25, 2011, 11:25:37 PM »
How about let's not reinvent trigonometry.  I'm not sure what your answer is, but if someone says "add 3 Round Turns"
I guess you missed it the first time around:  Maybe they should have said "add three turns" to indicate adding 3 circles of rope.  

Simply saying "turn" doesn't clearly indicate the degrees.

A turn that is only 270 degrees is still a "turn".  That is consistent with at least some of the 122 definitions from Dictionary.com.

A turn that is 360 degrees is a "Round Turn", and a "Round Turn" is a turn that is 360 degrees.  That is consistent with the meaning of Round Turn when a knot tier says "add a Round Turn".  I won't look down on you if you change your vote.  ;D
« Last Edit: January 25, 2011, 11:38:51 PM by knot4u »

roo

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Re: Poll on Round Turn description
« Reply #11 on: January 25, 2011, 11:37:42 PM »
How about let's not reinvent trigonometry.  I'm not sure what your answer is, but if someone says "add 3 Round Turns"
I guess you missed it the first time around:  Maybe they should have said "add three turns" to indicate adding 3 circles of rope.  
Simply saying "turn" doesn't clearly indicate the degrees.
In some contexts, it doesn't, but in the context of rope work, it does, as shown in the dictionary description of "turn" regarding rope and in the Ashley Book of Knots.

Think of a "turn" as a regular 360 degree encirclement and  a "round turn" as a turn with an extra 180 degrees to make it a round-trip turn of 540 degrees.
« Last Edit: January 25, 2011, 11:38:36 PM by roo »
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knot4u

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Re: Poll on Round Turn description
« Reply #12 on: January 25, 2011, 11:46:46 PM »
How about let's not reinvent trigonometry.  I'm not sure what your answer is, but if someone says "add 3 Round Turns"
I guess you missed it the first time around:  Maybe they should have said "add three turns" to indicate adding 3 circles of rope.  
Simply saying "turn" doesn't clearly indicate the degrees.
In some contexts, it doesn't, but in the context of rope work, it does, as shown in the dictionary description of "turn" regarding rope and in the Ashley Book of Knots.

Think of a "turn" as a regular 360 degree encirclement and  a "round turn" as a turn with an extra 180 degrees to make it a round-trip turn of 540 degrees.

I disagree.  That extra 180 degrees is separate from the meaning of Round Turn.  The extra 180 degrees is implied in just about every hitch.  For example, the Slipped Buntline already has an implied 180 degrees of turn around an object.  Likewise, a "Round Turn And Two Half Hitches" has an implied 180 degrees of turn before making making the Round Turn which is 360 by itself.  Again, if someone says "add 3 Round Turns", there is no new definition needed.  It's the same exact definition:  add 3 x 360 degrees of turn to equal 3 Round Turns.

roo

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Re: Poll on Round Turn description
« Reply #13 on: January 25, 2011, 11:52:26 PM »
I disagree. 
How many degrees are in a turn of rope in your opinion?
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knot4u

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Re: Poll on Round Turn description
« Reply #14 on: January 25, 2011, 11:57:31 PM »
I disagree.  
How many degrees are in a turn of rope in your opinion?

Whatever is indicated...

2 degrees turn
90 degrees turn
180 degrees turn
270 degrees turn

Now, if you asked me "How many degrees are in a wrap of rope in your opinion?", then my answer would be 360 degrees.

Saying "turn" to mean 360 degrees is just lazy communication.  For comparison, people usually say "strength" when they actually mean "security".
« Last Edit: January 26, 2011, 12:01:06 AM by knot4u »