Author Topic: Crossing knot with a figure-eight  (Read 376 times)

enhaut

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Crossing knot with a figure-eight
« on: October 09, 2021, 11:37:29 PM »
This is a crossing knot with a figure-eight finishing end.
I have not seen yet something similar on the forum if someone does please point me the way.

If you examine the loose knot closely, you realize how the rope's curves play nicely against each other convening a welcome parallelism.

The jamming profile is excellent judging from my tryout with a 8mm climbing rope.

It is TIB and there is enough stoppage action to be EELoaded.

Images; CK8F-front
        CK8F-back
        CK8F-loose
        CK8F-stiff

enhaut

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Re: Crossing knot with a figure-eight
« Reply #1 on: October 10, 2021, 01:45:44 AM »
I realized that a collar "jump" is possible too.
Maybe this other dressing shows a knot already known.
Let's see.
Here pictured with the 8 mm rope.

Images = C-Jump-A
         C-Jump-B
         C-Jump-C
         C-Jump-D

wysper

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Re: Crossing knot with a figure-eight
« Reply #2 on: October 10, 2021, 11:27:20 PM »
Hi Enhaut

I like the look of this.
I am a bit of a newbie so it took me some time to tie it the first time.
But I got there in the end and now I will look to find the easier way to tie it.
I haven't even attempted the TIB aspect.

I really like the symmetry of the 'back' of the knot. A nice herringbone look.

Cheers
Greg


 

enhaut

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Re: Crossing knot with a figure-eight
« Reply #3 on: October 11, 2021, 01:08:25 AM »
Hi Greg,
Thx for tying the knot.

I learned a new word today; herringbone.

So if I understand this definition, you are referring to the second offering of the knot present at #1.
I think the first one is more jam resistant than the second. I will produce a picture explaining my tough process about this soon.

Today I came up with a solution in finding the simple (for me) TIB process.
Images to come.
Feel free to try and share here a solution of your own taste.

A TIB knot can be handled in a lot of ways, if you have the time go on YTube and watch Alan Lee's videos, there is plenty to learn on his channel.
alanleeknots - YouTube

jr.
« Last Edit: October 11, 2021, 01:10:16 AM by enhaut »

tsik_lestat

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Re: Crossing knot with a figure-eight
« Reply #4 on: October 12, 2021, 01:12:45 PM »
Hi Enhaut

This is a very clear and straightforward approach, combining two well known, basic, knotting elements.

I like the solid way you are binding the crossing knot, making this component more stable and less prone to shape distortion, with this figure eight entanglement (a known issue of crossing knot based eyeknots).

As much as i love the herringbone look, at C-jump-B snapshot (a quite "catchy" descriptor  :)), i consent to the original post's collar placement, which needs to be located behind the figure eight, in order to be somehow restrained from being deformed at peak loads.
I guess we don't want the jumping collar to fold out into a malformed collar, or even a "ghost" collar, do we?

A couple of quick tests, showed that your nub is very pliable, with no problems of coming undone, even with the reverse figure eight based, tangle (more stable, but much tighter as expected).
I usually tag such knots, as non-PET, pseudo bowlines, because of the remnant, nipping knot structure.

It may not be scientifically quite correct, but many times i give in to my curiosity, and perform knot war tests, for instance this knot versus its reverse, and draw some conclusions about their overall response.

Maybe Alan would be willing to further investigate the stability/jamming threshold of this very promising, EEL, TIB, eyeknot?
« Last Edit: October 12, 2021, 03:30:49 PM by tsik_lestat »
Going knots

wysper

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Re: Crossing knot with a figure-eight
« Reply #5 on: October 12, 2021, 11:55:37 PM »
Hi Guys,

Most of my playing around with this one has been as an end loop.
I am not a climber or a rescue worker or anything so my uses don't end up being shock loaded or put under extremes of force.
For instance I am not pulling my car out of a ditch with it or anything.

But what I have found echoes that of the posts above, the first dressing method is easier to untie, the herringbone version while to me is much nicer looking is a little harder to untie, but for me the difference doesn't matter as for my uses, as neither way has required a tool to untie.

I like the shape and form of the herringbone dressing but am aware it might be harder to unite.

I am going to have a play around over the next couple of days with it as a midline loop (for uses where previously I would use the butterfly).

Cheers
Greg

enhaut

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Re: Crossing knot with a figure-eight
« Reply #6 on: October 14, 2021, 12:53:55 AM »
Hi tsik_lestat

Thank you for the review.
You correctly point out the stopper effect of the figure 8 "head" on the collar.

I was for my part very surprise when I noticed the stability  you observed.
It's like these two components are made to work with each other.

Moreover the "going around the ongoing and outgoing legs" gives easy access to the nub making it as you said pliable.
Your stand correct in underlining the first offering value over the second.

But here we disagree when you say;

Quote
I usually tag such knots, as non-PET, pseudo bowlines, because of the remnant, nipping knot structure.

There is no remnant nipping knot structure present after untying this loop.

I had to revise the TIB concept to be sure and I came across a good thread. I invite you to read agent_smith at reply #22 here;

https://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=6935.msg45897#msg45897

I quote a part of this here;

Quote
In my view, the key point is whether or not it is conditional that a knot is pre-existing in the line.
That is; if it is a necessary condition that a knot must be pre-existing in the line before the working end is fed through an object (a fixed ring) - it isn't deserving of the title 'PET'.

I agree with that view.

We clearly see in my last image that the unknot needed to realize the loop doesn?t need to be done before the feeding through the fixed ring.
Thus it is a PET loop.
Making it PET, TIB and EEL.

Here is the TIB route that I find most relevant.
The nascent figure 8 done in the first steps is made obvious.
With practice it can be tied in the air.

Images  TIB-1-2-3
             TIB-3-4-5-6
             TIB-7-8
             Prove of concepts



tsik_lestat

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Re: Crossing knot with a figure-eight
« Reply #7 on: October 14, 2021, 03:15:00 PM »
Good day Enhaut

I don't think we have a disagreement, perhaps i wasn't perfectly clear, so i'm quoting my preceding wording with some highlighted text, trying to set it straight.

Quote
even with the reverse figure eight based, tangle (more stable, but much tighter as expected).
I usually tag such knots, as non-PET, pseudo bowlines, because of the remnant, nipping knot structure.

It's rather obvious now, that i was refering to the reverse, figure eight based profile of your original post.

Undoubtedly, your CK8 is PET and TIB, but it is also EEL, so my curiosity drove me to tie/test the inverse configuration as well, because, as i mentioned previously, i wanted to investigate, how a closed form nipping component, in this case the classic figure eight, responses to strain when entangled with a bowlinesque, bight, returning eye leg, structure.

So, it was this profile that i tagged as non-PET, pseudo bowline, because according to the definition you quoted from agent_smith, which i totally agree with, one has to preform a figure eight (a non-TIB nipping structure), before feeding the working end through a ring for instance, which also remains in the line when untying the knot.

Thank you for the very interesting, bonus, TIB tying method, for TIB enthusiasts.

Ps : For new readers who are not familiar with the acronyms.....

PET = post eye tiable

EEL = either end loadable

TIB = tiable in the bight
« Last Edit: October 14, 2021, 04:04:15 PM by tsik_lestat »
Going knots

enhaut

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Re: Crossing knot with a figure-eight
« Reply #8 on: October 14, 2021, 04:45:20 PM »
Hello tsik_lestat

All is perfectly clear now, ths for the reply. :)


jr.

wysper

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Re: Crossing knot with a figure-eight
« Reply #9 on: October 14, 2021, 08:39:31 PM »


Ps : For new readers who are not familiar with the acronyms.....

PET = post eye tiable

EEL = either end loadable

TIB = tiable in the bight

I had to google post eye tiable!

So much to learn.

It's great.

Dan_Lehman

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Re: Crossing knot with a figure-eight
« Reply #10 on: October 15, 2021, 10:57:43 PM »
This is a crossing knot with a figure-eight finishing end.
Looking at a variation --to wit, this


I am much happier that you've shown a fig.8-based eye knot
(with the crossing-knot return).   I.p., I find it similar but nicer
than the Scott eye knot just presented (10/15?).
(I've not played around with it enough to opine about
jamming; the hope would be that the SPart's turn is
adequately loaded w/various parts (3) to enable loosening.)


Thanks,
--dl*
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