Author Topic: Seeking name for friction hitch  (Read 486 times)

Knicknack

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Re: Seeking name for friction hitch
« Reply #15 on: October 30, 2021, 07:59:05 PM »
Much thanks for the input.  The toggle-8, as I'm calling it for now, has similar appearance to Ashley's #1992, but in knots, small structural differences can yield large difference in how it actually operates.  The first step of #1992 is a pass around the main line to form the initial loop, whereas the first step of the toggle-8 is the formation of the first loop completely apart from the main line.  And #1992 finishes with the tail passing through the first loop, whereas toggle-8, as Agent Smith has observed, finishes with a toggle, which bypasses the first loop.  This means that instead of the first loop constricting the tail and main line together to provide friction to resist traveling, the tension in both sides of the first loop act to clench the tail against the main line perpendicular to the main line, such that the tail acts as a rolling fulcrum, which appears to be a very different mechanism for developing resistance to traveling.  Also, the toggle-8 can be tied on the bight, whereas #1992 cannot.

It also appears that Ashley is using "jamming hitch" to refer to a class of knots, rather than to #1992 particularly.

I have never tried using the toggle-8 in a bend application.  (Ditto for the experiment hitch.)  I have no idea whether it might have any utility for such an application.  My suspicion would be that it doesn't.

agent_smith

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Re: Seeking name for friction hitch
« Reply #16 on: October 31, 2021, 01:14:24 AM »
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Suggestions for a name for the experiment hitch would also be welcome.
Perhaps Toggle 8 grip hitch?

Note that Ashley's #1992 is presented as an adjustable noose hitch (and so is #1993 & #1994).
I should comment that adjustable noose hitches also have a corresponding 'slide and grip' hitch (in the same way that all bends have 4 corresponding eye knots (within a chiral orientation).
In Knicknack's case, his creation is configured as the corresponding slide and grip version of #1992 - but with the addition of a toggled bight (which can also be viewed as 'slipped').
I think the toggled bight is a novel addition and certainly enhances/boosts its ability to grip to its 'host'.
That novel addition - in my view - takes it a step beyond Ashley's depiction of #1992... and so I would like to see Knicknack remembered as the 'creator/originator' of his "Toggled 8 grip hitch".

I always keep in mind that Ashley published his masterpiece during WW2 and without the aid of a computer!
He was (to an extent) constrained by the traditions and state-of-the-art at that point in time.
He used the word 'jam' to describe some of his presented hitches - which (in my personal view) is unfortunate. 'Grip' would have been a more accurate descriptor.

I personally find that the term 'jam hitch' not to be a particularly useful concept.
The word 'jam' has its own meaning (and there are in fact different levels of 'jamming').

In Knicknack's case, the property of 'jamming' is (I believe) something he wishes to avoid.
I don't think he developed this variation with jamming foremost in his mind.

Also, nice find Scott - you are a great super sleuth :)
See Knicknack, I mentioned that someone would be thumbing their way through a book - and behold, he found a good analogue of your presentation at #1992!

And in closing, please consider 'grip' instead of 'jam' hitch (because the operational characteristic of your hitch is that its grips well - rather than jams).

Knicknack

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Re: Seeking name for friction hitch
« Reply #17 on: October 31, 2021, 02:25:08 AM »
Perhaps Toggle 8 grip hitch?

I like it.  (For the first hitch I presented--not for the hitch that I developed for the purposes of the experiment.)
I wanted to include "grip" (I felt it needed some sort of a function descriptor, I like the adjective--I used grippy in my first post, and I even like the extra beat in the name) but I stepped in it last time by referring to something as a friction hitch without knowing about its specific meaning within knot terminology, and I didn't know if "grip" was similarly taken.  If it's available, I think that would succinctly capture the point of the knot.

And you are correct.  I strongly feel that "jamming" would very poorly convey the point of the knot, so if any association with that term could be avoided, I think that would be to the good.

Dan_Lehman

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Re: Seeking name for friction hitch
« Reply #18 on: November 03, 2021, 12:57:59 AM »
Looking at my copy of Ashley?s book of knots,
it looks like your offering has its roots as the #1992 Jamming hitch.
Yours is slipped with a bight.
Without looking further, I could name it a ?Slipped Jamming Hitch?.
I'm looking at similarities with #1746.
[edit/add : More nearly #1469, and all of #1467 .. 71,
 for "jam hitches".]
Which if I recall my fiddling a few days back,
is more like the reverse of the OP's knot
--which, NB, was suggested to work even better!

I did play around with this, briefly, in firmish 8mm
kernmantle; as I suspected, the knot didn't hold,
used to make a(n adjustable) eye, into which I stood
and bounced a little.
REVERSING the knot did, as hinted, give a solid nip & grip,
which comes with deformation of the hitched object(rope).

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That said, it is just actually a slipped Fig. 8 with a host running through it.
No, that is NOT a fig.8 --as a marlinespike h. isn't an OH.
--like shape, missed Xing.   :-\

 :)
« Last Edit: November 03, 2021, 10:32:54 PM by Dan_Lehman »

agent_smith

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Re: Seeking name for friction hitch
« Reply #19 on: November 04, 2021, 08:55:45 AM »
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No, that is NOT a fig.8

You're correct, it isn't a slipped F8.
I think Knicknack was simply referring to its appearance rather than its precise geometry.