Author Topic: Lineman's Loop Variation and Midline eye knots  (Read 3437 times)

alanleeknots

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Lineman's Loop Variation and Midline eye knots
« on: April 25, 2021, 06:56:59 PM »
     Hi All,
             Here is a variation of Lineman's Loop, quite easy to tie, some quick tests, I found it improved quite a bit on all way pull.
             Will do more test as soon as possible. 謝謝 alanleeknots.
« Last Edit: April 27, 2021, 07:56:13 PM by alanleeknots »

tsik_lestat

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Re: Lineman's Loop Variation
« Reply #1 on: April 25, 2021, 11:23:38 PM »
Hi, Alan, it remains to be seen if this retucking technique features any merit to butterfly's performance.

I mean, is it better to add an extra collar as in your variation, or to enhance butterfly's core with an extra turn, as it was demonstated by agent_smith with the RT butterfly? You know the ropes to provide a clear answer.

Link : https://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=6973.0

Retucking from the other side, might be another option.

Going knots

agent_smith

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Re: Lineman's Loop Variation
« Reply #2 on: April 26, 2021, 03:31:16 AM »
Thank you for your presentation.
However, there is no net benefit to be gained from this additional maneuver of the eye.
The standard #1053 Butterfly is already jam resistant when BTL (bi-axially through loaded).
It is eye loading that causes issues.

In your presentation, the eye legs don't gain a net benefit - because one eye leg arcs around 1 rope diameter and the other eye leg arcs around 2 rope diameters.

In the RT Butterfly, there is a overall net gain - because both eye legs arc around 3 rope diameters - and, both SParts arc around 3 rope diameters.

You should load test the RT Butterfly and compare it to the standard #1053 Butterfly.
The standard #1053 Butterfly jams when eye loaded under heavy load.

Note that eye loading can occur in 2 different directions.

alanleeknots

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Re: Lineman's Loop Variation
« Reply #3 on: April 27, 2021, 07:08:05 AM »
   Hi All,
            Few more quick tests on this loop here, just to make sure she is fine.
            This is a good looking loop. And can handed heave weight, have to said why not?
             I like it anyway. Will find time to do the test. 謝謝 alanleeknots.

alanleeknots

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Re: Lineman's Loop Variation and Midline eye knots
« Reply #4 on: April 27, 2021, 08:17:33 PM »
   Hi All,
            Has few more good looking knots here, just so busy, haven't done any test on these
            knots here yet. Seem like it will work. And hope for the best.
            Mark, when I more free time, will test your knot first. 謝謝 alanleeknots.

Dennis Pence

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Re: Lineman's Loop Variation and Midline eye knots
« Reply #5 on: May 06, 2021, 10:36:34 PM »
The midline eye knot called a Half-Hitch Noose in the original 1928 paper by Wright and Magowan where the name Butterfly originated, will benefit from some of these extra variations even more.  Here are a few ways to move to some form of a Double Overhand Knot in place of an Overhand Knot in this loop.

alanleeknots

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Re: Lineman's Loop Variation and Midline eye knots
« Reply #6 on: May 07, 2021, 11:21:59 AM »
Dennis Pence, 
                    Thanks for your presentation, good work. I think I already choose all the good one,
                     we can double coil on the weak side and also do the similar thing to the strong side,
                     tomorrow will post more work on the strong that I did not post.
                     So far I like the first five loops that I had posted.
                     I like very much is the "Lineman's Loop Variation (1)" 
                     The improved version of Lineman's Loop Variation (1) is very good, I have high
                      hope with this one. will do so test for RT Butterfly next day or two.
                      Dennis, will look at your work and tell you what I know. 謝謝 alanleeknots.
                      May-7  Correction and replace a wrong tie Lineman's Loop Variation  1 & 2

     
« Last Edit: May 08, 2021, 09:02:46 AM by alanleeknots »

agent_smith

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Re: Lineman's Loop Variation and Midline eye knots
« Reply #7 on: May 07, 2021, 04:12:30 PM »
Thanks Dennis,

Interesting presentations at reply #5.
Of the 3 TIB and BTL (bi-axially through loadable) eye knots, the 1st (top) structure holds some interest for me.
The other 2 not so much.
Load testing in BTL profile and also eye loading would need to be undertaken to confirm jam resistance (although initial thought is that the bottom structure might be vulnerable to jamming).

Commentary:
I still lean toward and favor the 'RT Butterfly' as the most promising variant of #1053 Butterfly.
It is very simple and easy to tie using the hand wrap method - and has balanced symmetry with SParts and eye legs all arcing around 3 rope diameters.
The history of the RT Butterfly is unclear - since multiple people have claimed discovery (and because the hand wrap method is so easy - others may also have stumbled upon it).
What bothers me (somewhat) is why no one had presented it before? Perhaps I am the first to actually 'publish' and report it?

Dennis Pence

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Re: Lineman's Loop Variation and Midline eye knots
« Reply #8 on: May 07, 2021, 11:12:36 PM »
Alan,
 
I agree that many of my variations are similar to yours, but you always started with a Lineman's Loop (or Butterfly).  I was starting with what Wright and Magowan called a "Half-Hitch Noose" (in the same Alpine Journal article where they name the Butterfly).  It is widely regarded as less secure than a Butterfly, and thus maybe benefits more from the variations.

By the way, since we are discussing Lineman's Loop Variations, here is perhaps a new application for the Lineman's Loop as a bottle knot.

alanleeknots

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Re: Lineman's Loop Variation and Midline eye knots
« Reply #9 on: May 08, 2021, 09:51:20 AM »
Dennis,
           Nice to know you fond a new application for the Lineman's Loop as a bottle knot.
           I have good look at your presentation, have some interest with Twin Half Hitches,
           Double Wrap do need some testing.
           I  have a look again, modify from the strong side of Butterfly loop, all the variation
           turn in very ugly. so don't bother to show it.

alanleeknots

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Re: Lineman's Loop Variation and Midline eye knots
« Reply #10 on: June 07, 2021, 11:32:37 AM »
Hi All,
        Time to do some test on midline loops, my plan will do tsik , enhaut and then my loop.
         Last few day busy doing initial test for tsik's loop, while doing the test, all the sudden some idea on my
         mind Dragon loop knot may have something in there, and here I found the loop below.
         Tomorrow will start to make some videos, and post it the next few day. 謝謝 alanleeknots.

tsik_lestat

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Re: Lineman's Loop Variation and Midline eye knots
« Reply #11 on: June 07, 2021, 06:02:14 PM »
Thanks Alan, when i first saw your dragon-like midline knots, i just wondered if they fit in this lineman's variation  thread.

However, after a more intensive core inspection, in particular at the area where the Sparts cross each other, i believe they do point to butterfly-like knots.

Verily, performing some nub transformations to both knots, with some slight eye manipuilation, one may reveal the corresponding, end of line lineman-like, knots formed by figure eight and overhand links respectively. I believe, this concept remains in the realm of knotting enthusiasts, so i won't bother  to add anything further.

Nonetheless, i'd like to focus on your second variation midline dragon X.

If i rearrange the eye legs, and override the Sparts crossing area, forming just a simple crossing knot collar, in order to avoid the additional friction, i end up with the attached configuration, which is the inline variant of the knot structure presented here...

Link : https://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=6961.msg46034#msg46034

I guess wih those simple amendments, we are getting closer to a jam resistant midline knot.

Similar function knot, can be developed using figure eight, of course in the form of crossing knot + nipping turn like this paradigm.....

Link : https://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=6799.msg46372#msg46372
Going knots

alanleeknots

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Re: Lineman's Loop Variation and Midline eye knots
« Reply #12 on: June 23, 2021, 10:35:38 AM »
Hi All,
       Have a quick test on Lineman's Loop Variation (4 ) with Bluewater Ropes
        11mm(7/16")SAFELINE.
       EEl Jam threshold about 1100kg MBS.
       BTL Jam threshold about 1200kg MBS.
       Don't have time to test Lineman's Loop Variation (3 ) looking good to me, and I like it very
       much.
       tsik, Sorry hasn't finish testing your knots, just some health issue with my wife, hopefully
       everything go well, I can get back on the testing again.
       And thanks for you comments.  謝謝 alanleeknots.

alanleeknots

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Re: Lineman's Loop Variation and Midline eye knots
« Reply #13 on: June 24, 2021, 05:35:33 AM »
 Hi All,
          After so many months our members tsik , enhaut, Dan, Mark, and all other members
          of course included me here have contribute to the midline loop. I think we already try
          everything and all the possible, should be close to the end now.
          My conclusion, If we are looking for a simple single knot that can do multiple function
          and yet is jam resistant, properly will never have such a knot does exist,
          I believe we have some good knots this time, yet none of them is jam resistant for multiple
          function, just need to test it out, chose the best one and try it out on the field.
          Thanks to tsik , enhaut their efford and lead us exploring to the new territory,
          I do learn a lot from it.   謝謝 alanleeknots.