Author Topic: Scott's Locked Bowline Instructional Video  (Read 852 times)

Davide Fossati

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Scott's Locked Bowline Instructional Video
« on: November 25, 2020, 04:15:53 AM »
Hi everyone,

I made a video to illustrate and discuss my favorite tie-in knot for rock climbing, the "Scott's Locked Bowline":
https://youtu.be/GxFCqCIC1CE

Scott, I would like to add a reference to the page where you originally published this knot. Do you have a link for it?

Thank you
Davide

SS369

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Re: Scott's Locked Bowline Instructional Video
« Reply #1 on: November 25, 2020, 01:15:17 PM »
Hi everyone,

I made a video to illustrate and discuss my favorite tie-in knot for rock climbing, the "Scott's Locked Bowline":
https://youtu.be/GxFCqCIC1CE

Scott, I would like to add a reference to the page where you originally published this knot. Do you have a link for it?

Thank you
Davide

Well Done Davide!
I enjoyed your video and you covered the salient points well.

My original posting of it was to the thread ?Simple lock for the Bowline? . https://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=19.msg20538#msg20538

Question Davide: How has it been received by others that you have experienced, if any?

SS

agent_smith

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Re: Scott's Locked Bowline Instructional Video
« Reply #2 on: November 25, 2020, 02:15:05 PM »
Hello Davide - nice work.
Your video presentation is certainly one of the best I have seen - you've done your homework.

I would point out that there are in fact four (4) different Scotts locked Bowlines.
The one that you showcase is based on #1010 Simple Bowline with a right hand nipping loop.
The nipping loop that you had initially formed in your video was right-handed (ie Z chirality).

Essentially, all knots have a mirror image version of themselves.
If you take your presented Scotts locked Bowline (with 'Z' chirality) and hold it up to a plane mirror - you will see a Scotts locked Bowline with 'S' chirality.

You can do the same thing with a #1047 Figure 8 eye knot.
Tie the F8 in your normal way, and then hold it up to a plane mirror.
The reflection will have opposite 'chirality'.

People tend to tie knots in a way that is influenced by their dominant hand (ie right-handed person versus left-handed person).
In your case, you tied Scotts locked Bowline with a right-hand nipping loop (ie Z chirality) - which leads me to think that you are a right hand dominant person!

With regard to the other variations of Scotts locked Bowline, they can be based on #1034 1/2 Bowline (ie tail outside of the eye).
So the starting base for Scotts locked Bowline can be either:
[ ] #1010 simple Bowline (tail inside the eye); or
[ ] #1034 1/2 Bowline (tail outside of the eye).
and...in both cases, there can be S or Z chirality nipping loops.

...

Some other comments in relation to your video:
[ ] PET knots are also easier to work with when tying around larger objects - eg a large diameter tree or a large boulder. Also, some people have trouble estimating how much tail to allow for when tying an F8 knot into their climbing harness.
[ ] With regard to F8 propensity to jam - this can be related to the way in which the F8 is tied - in particular, the orientation of the SPart. Also, it is repeated free-falls on modern sub 9.0mm EN892 ropes that are more likely to jam.

Terminology:
You use the descriptor 'eye' - which (in my view) is technically accurate.
Keep in mind that there are some IGKT knot tyers who will have catatonic seizures when you use the term 'eye' instead of 'loop'.
They will be outraged - and potentially shout and complain for allegedly daring to break with traditional knot terminology.
You will also pop up on their radar screens and potentially become a target.
I say good on you - and well done!

Reasoning:
A fixed 'eye' of knot has no particular chirality.
A loop has chirality - either S or Z.
ie... the 'nipping loop' can be formed as 'S' or 'Z'.
The 'eye' of a Bowline will not have S or Z geometry - its simply an 'eye'.
An 'eye' allows connections - that is, it is a connective interface (rather like an eye bolt).
If you visit your local home hardware store and ask for a 'loop bolt' - the sales staff will think you are 'loopy'!
Instead - you need to ask for an 'eye bolt'.
The 'eye' of an eye bolt is an analog for the eye of a Bowline (or any other fixed eye knot).

Keep up the good work :)

Davide Fossati

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Re: Scott's Locked Bowline Instructional Video
« Reply #3 on: November 28, 2020, 12:53:12 AM »

Well Done Davide!
I enjoyed your video and you covered the salient points well.

My original posting of it was to the thread ?Simple lock for the Bowline? . https://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=19.msg20538#msg20538

Question Davide: How has it been received by others that you have experienced, if any?

SS

Thank you Scott, I updated the video description and included the link you sent.

I learned about this knot at the beginning of September - you guys thoroughly answered my questions here:
https://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=6856.msg45141#msg45141

Since then, I started using it regularly for climbing, and I taught it to most of my climbing partners. They all learned it very quickly and they all love it. When I posted my instructional video on a rock climbing group on Facebook a few days ago, I got many positive comments, but I also got many skeptical and/or hostile comments as well. In my opinion those negative comments come from dogmatic people who pass judgment without objectively analyzing the merits of the knot. I politely recommended them to read Mark Gommer's paper "Bowline Analysis" to learn more details about the inner structure of bowlines. However I doubt they will ever do it. It's easier for them to stick with dogma than to try to understand and learn something new. Well, their loss! I will be happy to keep using this knot and teaching it to my friends.

Davide

Davide Fossati

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Re: Scott's Locked Bowline Instructional Video
« Reply #4 on: November 28, 2020, 01:14:00 AM »
Hello Davide - nice work.
Your video presentation is certainly one of the best I have seen - you've done your homework.

I would point out that there are in fact four (4) different Scotts locked Bowlines.
The one that you showcase is based on #1010 Simple Bowline with a right hand nipping loop.
The nipping loop that you had initially formed in your video was right-handed (ie Z chirality).

Essentially, all knots have a mirror image version of themselves.
If you take your presented Scotts locked Bowline (with 'Z' chirality) and hold it up to a plane mirror - you will see a Scotts locked Bowline with 'S' chirality.

You can do the same thing with a #1047 Figure 8 eye knot.
Tie the F8 in your normal way, and then hold it up to a plane mirror.
The reflection will have opposite 'chirality'.

People tend to tie knots in a way that is influenced by their dominant hand (ie right-handed person versus left-handed person).
In your case, you tied Scotts locked Bowline with a right-hand nipping loop (ie Z chirality) - which leads me to think that you are a right hand dominant person!

With regard to the other variations of Scotts locked Bowline, they can be based on #1034 1/2 Bowline (ie tail outside of the eye).
So the starting base for Scotts locked Bowline can be either:
[ ] #1010 simple Bowline (tail inside the eye); or
[ ] #1034 1/2 Bowline (tail outside of the eye).
and...in both cases, there can be S or Z chirality nipping loops.

...

Some other comments in relation to your video:
[ ] PET knots are also easier to work with when tying around larger objects - eg a large diameter tree or a large boulder. Also, some people have trouble estimating how much tail to allow for when tying an F8 knot into their climbing harness.
[ ] With regard to F8 propensity to jam - this can be related to the way in which the F8 is tied - in particular, the orientation of the SPart. Also, it is repeated free-falls on modern sub 9.0mm EN892 ropes that are more likely to jam.

Terminology:
You use the descriptor 'eye' - which (in my view) is technically accurate.
Keep in mind that there are some IGKT knot tyers who will have catatonic seizures when you use the term 'eye' instead of 'loop'.
They will be outraged - and potentially shout and complain for allegedly daring to break with traditional knot terminology.
You will also pop up on their radar screens and potentially become a target.
I say good on you - and well done!

Reasoning:
A fixed 'eye' of knot has no particular chirality.
A loop has chirality - either S or Z.
ie... the 'nipping loop' can be formed as 'S' or 'Z'.
The 'eye' of a Bowline will not have S or Z geometry - its simply an 'eye'.
An 'eye' allows connections - that is, it is a connective interface (rather like an eye bolt).
If you visit your local home hardware store and ask for a 'loop bolt' - the sales staff will think you are 'loopy'!
Instead - you need to ask for an 'eye bolt'.
The 'eye' of an eye bolt is an analog for the eye of a Bowline (or any other fixed eye knot).

Keep up the good work :)

Thank you for your detailed feedback!

Yes, I'm aware that there are 4 different versions - I played around with the other versions as well. To avoid confusing people, I included in the video only one version, the one that feels more straightforward to me (indeed I'm right-handed).

Good point about tying PET knots around large object - I haven't thought about it before and it makes perfect sense!

Yes, an F8 can be more or less prone to jamming depending on where the SPart loops (it jams less if the SPart loop is closer to the center), and how well the knot is dressed and tightened. Thus said, the vast majority of climbers I saw don't pay attention to these details and tie it kind of randomly. Which is ironic because the F8 is advertised as a "fool proof" knot, but in reality it's more complicated to tie it well than a Scott's Locked Bowline. I think this is a blatant example of "familiarity bias" - people judge the F8 as being simpler to tie and easier to check just because they already know it, not because it's really simpler. In fact, from a purely procedural perspective, tying an F8 requires more steps than a Scott's Locked Bowline.

Thank you also for the clarification on the usage of term "eye".

Take care
Davide