Author Topic: Coatl knot, ` a stable variant of TIB 1010`  (Read 564 times)

tsik_lestat

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Coatl knot, ` a stable variant of TIB 1010`
« on: November 18, 2020, 05:37:32 PM »
There is a non-transparent knot structure, derived from TIB 1010 that i have encountered.

Details of the transition from one to the other are illustrated in the attached snapshots (easy transform with just one pull).

The knot is certainly an upgrade concerning the known vulnerabilities of TIB 1010 in cyclic loading and slack shaking, being distinctly more stable than its parent.

That said, Spart's helical curvature arose out of the transformation, renders the nub less pliable and a bit more challenging to form on stiff ropes, quite possibly capable of affecting its jam resistance on one hand, but not its reverse loading ability on the other.

PS: The knot's back view, (third image), brings on the "coatl" moniker, which means double-headed serpent in olden Aztec language  ::).
« Last Edit: December 03, 2020, 01:04:47 AM by tsik_lestat »
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tsik_lestat

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Re: Coatl knot, ` a stable variant of TIB 1010`
« Reply #1 on: November 22, 2020, 05:00:31 PM »
Now, let us try to reconstruct an inline knot structure profile of the previous end of line eyeknot.

Using some TIB maneuvers which i find rather challenging to capture, we arrive at the following midline eyeknot that i haven't seen so far.

It appears that it is made up of the same components with span loop, Abok 1049, (simple loop + shaped-eight), entangled somewhat differently to form this very configuration.

I guess this is not the easiest way for its formation, hopefully i might subsequently come up with a more compact, knot friendly tying method  :).
« Last Edit: December 02, 2020, 05:23:08 PM by tsik_lestat »
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enhaut

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Re: Coatl bowline, ` a stable variant of TIB 1010`
« Reply #2 on: November 25, 2020, 11:34:45 PM »
@tsik_lestat
I like it of course an it is TIB.
" That said, Spart's helical curvature arose out of the transformation. "
Nice translation to form a helical nip (should we say?)
It seems efficient in both loading profile and when both legs are pulling in 180 degree fashion the bite is strong enough and the nub remains stable in the rope I tested.

 The coatl moniker is well chosen. I like it when knotters find images for the mind in naming their creation.
Bravo.
ps. The black lettering on a dark background is hard to read, but I guess you did not want to ruin a good picture.

tsik_lestat

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Re: Coatl knot, ` a stable variant of TIB 1010`
« Reply #3 on: November 26, 2020, 05:27:41 PM »
Thanks for your analysis master Enhaut, there are some knot structures derived from the simple basics, most of the times lying in front of our eyes, but our minds are not ready to acknowledge them yet.

My explorations are oriented towards that field too, (derivatives of basic TIB structures), and i believe i've got a very good one for an upcoming thread.

Back in the OP, let's feed beast's right head with a WE tuck, and we'll get the helical nip hitched with my favourite figure eight geometry, (first two images, getting more compactness with the cost of ruining the Tibness).

By feeding dragon's left head, we'll get a type of girth hitched helical nip, as shown in the next two images.

What of the midline? Has any knotting value to you? It appears that it is more stable than the simple harness.
I've got a simple TIB tying method for a subsequent reply.

PS: you are  right about the dark lettering legend, it is not very distiguishable, i'll have to fix that in my next attachements. Legend = Pull this strand to get TIB 1010  :).
« Last Edit: December 02, 2020, 05:23:32 PM by tsik_lestat »
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enhaut

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Re: Coatl bowline, ` a stable variant of TIB 1010`
« Reply #4 on: November 27, 2020, 01:26:50 AM »
@ tsik_lestat

"What of the midline?"
Well, I had to tie it in a more traditional way having not been able to find the TIB method yet.
The merit I found are this form will always resist a non-retrievable jamming state. The combination between the collar and the final eye permits easy access to work with and if not enough, the part where the eight shape does snap and bite is workable too in a longitudinal approach. One can stretch this part of the nub to that effect.

Digression on the importance of a good midline loop for tree workers

One of my summer jobs when studying was working as a groundsman for the tree climber specialist in my hometown. The groundsman job is pretty straightforward; he keeps the working are clean, help the climber when needed and handle the ropes.That is where I learned some basic knots for this profession. The butterfly was one of them, we use it in the middle of a rope when we wanted to put more tightness in the segment guiding the falling tree to the correct destination. Let me say that jamming a butterfly is very common in these situations.
How your midline proposition will handle this scenario is to be tested.
jr.
ps I hope you will give us the solution to the TIB tying method.

image- example of one usage of the butterfly by a tree worker.

siriuso

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Re: Coatl bowline, ` a stable variant of TIB 1010`
« Reply #5 on: November 27, 2020, 10:28:57 PM »
Hi tsik_lestat

I like your Coatl derived inline knot and I have tried to make a different one and IMO it would be more secure. Instead of making a Z loop and S loop, I use both Z loops.
yChan
« Last Edit: November 27, 2020, 11:12:14 PM by siriuso »

tsik_lestat

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Re: Coatl knot, ` a stable variant of TIB 1010`
« Reply #6 on: November 28, 2020, 05:56:05 PM »
@Enhaut

I see that your knotting skills extend to the professional levels of arboriculture, which  is associated with a quite demanding but very interesting working environment.

I understand that you have learned directly from the tree specialists, about rope handling and practical knotting application at it's very best I'd say, like the running butterfly you are illustrating for tree falling guidance.

With respect to the proposed midline eyeknot, i believe it can't reach the stability level of 1053 butterfly,(or EHL), but nonetheless the lack of overhands or figure eights, may render its use more delectable at extreme loading situations, by expanding its jamming thresholds.

@Siriuso

Hi Siriuso, and many thanks for giving it a try. As a matter of fact, i myself have taken a shot at other variants by alternating both loops chirality, but truthfully i haven't observed any stability/security improvement. How do you find the feeding of a simple bight (with no twist), up through the large loop, (instead of a loop with certain chirality), and does that lead to a Known inline knot structure with Abok number?

Tib tying method solution.......

1. Form  a fairly large S loop, which will be the final eye, and a smaller one Z loop, as shown in first image.

2. Feed the small loop up through the large loop, as shown in second image.

3. Flip the large loop down from both SPs, as shown in third image.

4. Feed the large loop down through the small one, as shown in fourth image.

5. Dress and cinch the knot tightly.
« Last Edit: December 02, 2020, 05:24:10 PM by tsik_lestat »
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siriuso

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Re: Coatl bowline, ` a stable variant of TIB 1010`
« Reply #7 on: November 28, 2020, 08:23:50 PM »
tsik_lestat

Here is the tying method, I use both S loops as start in order to compare with your pictures. The mentioned collar would be more tight to clamp the ear because the SPart goes through (captured by) two rings instead of one.

yChan

tsik_lestat

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Re: Coatl knot, ` a stable variant of TIB 1010`
« Reply #8 on: November 30, 2020, 08:53:10 PM »
Thanks Siriuso, you are absolutely right, i concede that i hadn't noticed that small but crucial detail.

The knot is more stable and secure in this configutation on one hand, but on the other its pliability and the ease of untying may be affected.

The Z through Z combination,  is also another workable approach, as you correctly point out.
« Last Edit: December 02, 2020, 05:24:48 PM by tsik_lestat »
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agent_smith

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Re: Coatl bowline, ` a stable variant of TIB 1010`
« Reply #9 on: December 01, 2020, 12:29:48 AM »
Hello tsik_lestat,

Thanks for your posted images, content and good work
I'm a latecomer to this thread topic and trying to catch up...

I am going back to your opening post where you stated the following:
Quote
There is a non-transparent knot structure, derived from TIB 1010 that i have encountered.

Something isn't making sense to me - for example, your comment "... from TIB 1010"
Are you referring to #1010 Simple Bowline?
If you are referring to #1010 Simple Bowline, my understanding is that this structure isn't TIB?
Also, the title of your topic thread is Coatl Bowline.
With regard to your initial posted images, are you therefore declaring them to be 'Bowlines'?
With regard to the rope ends in the initial posted images, which end are you designating as the SPart and the tail?
And by what geometric definition are you determining your initial posted images to be 'Bowlines'?

Note: I am not being offensive or attempting to denigrate your good work!
I am simply trying to understand your opening comments in your initial post and also the title of your topic in relation to the initial posted images.
I am probably missing some key underpinning information from your initial opening post?
I am also examining your initial (opening) post in isolation - without regard to any of your follow up posts.

tsik_lestat

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Re: Coatl knot, ` a stable variant of TIB 1010`
« Reply #10 on: December 01, 2020, 05:15:15 PM »
Hello Agent_smith

Quote
I am not being offensive or attempting to denigrate your good work!
I am simply trying to understand your opening comments in your initial post and also the title of your topic in relation to the initial posted images.
I am probably missing some key underpinning information from your initial opening post?

On no account, your pertinent comments are being construed as disparaging or offensive, quite the contrary i'd say, and apparently you are not missing any substantial information from the initial post.

I'm the one, who has failed to provide right and proper terms to describe the knot structure in question.

Quote
Something isn't making sense to me - for example, your comment "... from TIB 1010"
Are you referring to #1010 Simple Bowline?
If you are referring to #1010 Simple Bowline, my understanding is that this structure isn't TIB?

With respect to the term `TIB 1010`, i am refering to the TIB version of the simple 1010 bowline, with its tail tucked back through the collar. I'm simply not aware of any other moniker, therefore i use this term, which is of my own confection.

Quote
With regard to the rope ends in the initial posted images, which end are you designating as the SPart and the tail?

The geometry that i show with the two parallel ends (the rightmost one is shorter, designated to be the tail end), indicates that the SPart, is on the left side, where its continuation segment forms the helical coil nipping structure.

However, that does not denote that it can't be loaded from the other end, taking the form of the crossing knot based eyeknot, with the helical coil as a collar component.

Quote
Also, the title of your topic thread is Coatl Bowline.
With regard to your initial posted images, are you therefore declaring them to be 'Bowlines'?And by what geometric definition are you determining your initial posted images to be 'Bowlines'?

It appears that i have hastened mistakenly to attach the bowline title to this knot. The fact that the parent knot is a bowline,  does not necessarily preconceive that its transformed variation qualifies as a bowline too.

Trully, one can acknowledge a helical coil  TIB nipping structure and a collar whose only one leg is being clamped by the nipping structure, which does not fall in line with the strict definition of a bowline.

Most certainly i could make it align with the bowline criterion, and i did after reading your comment, but the proposed formation appears to be more intriguing to me  :).

Many thanks for your constructive intervention.
« Last Edit: December 02, 2020, 05:25:22 PM by tsik_lestat »
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