Author Topic: Maybe a new knot? Have you seen this before?  (Read 2170 times)

dhdimitrov

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Maybe a new knot? Have you seen this before?
« on: September 03, 2020, 10:10:30 AM »
Hello IGKT, I hope you are all doing well.

I was messing around with a double overhand variation and ended up tying this. It is tied like a double overhand knot but it has an extra loop in the middle. I can loosely describe the theoretical function of the knot as alpine-butterfly-ish. However, it cannot be tied in the bight.

Has anyone this one before? I've posted it on reddit yesterday but haven't received many comments :).


agent_smith

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Re: Maybe a new knot? Have you seen this before?
« Reply #1 on: September 03, 2020, 10:57:16 PM »
Hi dhdimitrov and thank you for posting your presentation (and question).

What you have tied is an eye knot that is derived from #1412 Ring bend (aka Water knot).

Every end-to-end joining knot (ie 'bend') has 4 corresponding eye knots.

The particular #1412 corresponding eye knot that you have tied has reversed the SParts (standing parts).
For example, if you re-tie your presentation and make the 'eye' (some might refer to it as 'loop') much larger, and then grasp the eye and cross-load it longitudinally (ie pull the eye apart so the each leg of the eye is axially aligned with the 'SParts'.

Another way to do this is to imagine that you have cut the eye with a scissors.
If you cut the eye, it transforms your knot into none other than #1412 Ring bend (water knot).

Remember that there are 4 possible corresponding eye knots derived from #1412 Ring bend - you have tied one of these 4.

Now, as to whether your presentation is "new".
There are some knot tying experts who would say no.
I believe Xarax once stated that if you have tied a 'bend' (ie end-to-end joining knot) - then by default you have also tied its corresponding eye knots.

Harry Asher was likely the first to publish the relationship between a 'bend' and its corresponding eye knots (in his book "The Alternative Knot Book".

Technically, Xarax may have a strong argument.
However, the opposing view is that a 'bend' is constructed from 2 separate lengths of rope which are then united. Loading on a 'bend' can only occur via the 180 degree opposing SParts (force enters the knot core from 2 directions which are 180 degrees in opposition).

In the case of an eye knot (as with your presentation), load can enter the core from multiple directions (depending on how you choose to orient and load the knot - ie depending on your reference frame). In general terms, load enters the knot core from 3 directions in eye knots (although it can also be 4 directions).

In your presentation, you can also hold one of the SParts (ie one end) - and then load the eye.
In this loading profile, it is what some have referred to as a 'competition knot' (ie a tie-in knot for rock climbing).

The reason for all this is that the relationship between a 'bend' and its corresponding eye knots is not well understood - and in particular, it is less understood by the lay public.
This is not in any way intended to be offensive (so please dont interpret it that way).

You can do the exact same process with the #1053 Butterfly (what you call an 'alpine' Butterfly).
The Butterfly bend has 4 corresponding eye knots - one of which is #1053 Butterfly!
Note that the so called 'Mobius Butterfly' is quite remarkable and is similar in concept to your presentation.
The Mobius Butterfly is EEL (either end loadable) - and so is your particular presentation.

...

So; is your presentation new?
I'm in the camp with Xarax.
I think you meant to type "Has anyone tied this before?" (or, "has anyone seen this one before?")
Its not really clear if you are making a claim for a new knot?
If yes, claims for new knots should be posted elsewhere in this forum (apologies if you are not making such a claim).

I'm saying 'no' - its not 'new'.
Hundreds of rock climbers would have tied it as a 'competition' knot for climbing on indoor artificial surfaces (they also likely didn't realize the relationship between a 'bend' and its 4 corresponding eye knots).

I hope this reply has been informative and helpful?


« Last Edit: September 03, 2020, 11:46:40 PM by agent_smith »

dhdimitrov

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Re: Maybe a new knot? Have you seen this before?
« Reply #2 on: September 04, 2020, 12:23:55 AM »
Wow, agent_smith, I couldn't have hoped for a more informative answer. Really appreciate your time in putting this together.

My general take from this is that a loop that forms from the tail ends of a bend is not really a unique knot  it's a "derived knot/loop". I'm thinking of a butterfly bend vs butterfly loop for example. I hope I didn't butcher this, but it seems complicated :) (at least to me). I'll have to spend more time to understand this fully.

I've experimented with having the first turn of the standing ends on top of the adjacent line,  but the loop would tighten up easier when I pulled the standing ends. So I think the presented version holds a better loop.

So, yes, I find this very helpful. Thanks again.

agent_smith

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Re: Maybe a new knot? Have you seen this before?
« Reply #3 on: September 04, 2020, 11:09:06 AM »
Quote
My general take from this is that a loop that forms from the tail ends of a bend is not really a unique knot  it's a "derived knot/loop". I'm thinking of a butterfly bend vs butterfly loop for example.
Please examine the attached photo.
Note the 4 corresponding eye knots which are derived from the Butterfly bend.
In particular, have a look at the 'Mobius Butterfly' - it is remarkable.

Quote
but it seems complicated :) (at least to me). I'll have to spend more time to understand this fully.
It can seem like it is complicated - but like any new learning, it is easy once you master the principles.
Remember the first time you drove a manual gear shift car? Now its almost effortless.

Try playing around with #1431 Sheet bend. You can create 4 corresponding eye knots from a sheet bend (you'll notice that a 'simple Bowline' is derived from a Sheet bend). In fact, you can derive 2 types of simple 'Bowlines' and 2 types of 'anti-Bowlines' from a Sheet bend.
Note: Some prefer the name 'Eskimo Bowline' instead of anti-Bowline.

Dan_Lehman

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Re: Maybe a new knot? Have you seen this before?
« Reply #4 on: September 04, 2020, 11:52:18 PM »
Every end-to-end joining knot (ie 'bend') has 4 corresponding eye knots.
//
Note the 4 corresponding eye knots which are derived from the Butterfly bend
I was going to let the first statement stand,
taking it on "e2e KNOT"
  (vs. *tangle* associated with the knot
    (i.e., the cookie cutter boundary
     within which is the entangled cordage
     --here, 2 pieces, cannonically 1-2 & A-B--
     and the 4 ends emerging awaiting some
     assigned Loading Profile);
   in which case we'd limit SParts to being either 1 or A.)
BUT if you're counting as you do that EEL Butterfly
with the 2nd statement, you've moved to taking ALL ends
and all possible eye knots :: that => 8.

1 v 2+A
1 v 2+B
2 v 1+A
2 v 1+B
... similarly with A & B qua SParts.

Yes, for a symmetric knot such as SmitHunter's,
there are essential repeats (you might exclaim
about "cheirality"; I won't).  But here we nicely
have an asymmetric tangle, so a full set of 8!

But for me, this is an association of the *tangle*,
and that between eye & end-2-end knots I will
limit, and then have another idea altogether,
as I've previously explained (where one ties
one piece to a bight qua single joining strand
and then figures how to *fuse* parts for making
a single-strand eye knot.

As for tying the OP's knot qua "Competition knot",
that is not this exterior-loaded one but the other,
INterior-loaded version, but both sort of taking the
*offset* aspect into their corresponding eye knot.

.:.  Interesting knot & discussion!


--dl*
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dhdimitrov

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Re: Maybe a new knot? Have you seen this before?
« Reply #5 on: September 05, 2020, 08:57:19 AM »
Quite interesting. I tied the bend (see attachment 1) and explored the other possible loops. To my surprise (I should have seen this coming) one version forms an overhand loop :) (see attachment 2).
« Last Edit: September 05, 2020, 09:16:06 AM by dhdimitrov »

Kost_Greg

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Re: Maybe a new knot? Have you seen this before?
« Reply #6 on: September 05, 2020, 04:07:45 PM »
Hello dhdimitrov

With respect to your second attached image at reply#5, this is Abok 1009, one of the simplest and commonest of loops as Asley claims, as well as one of the first eyeknots someone learns. Nonetheless, it is very difficult to untie, a known jammer, due to the overhand component, hence not practical, unless you want a permanent end termination eyeknot.

But when there is a will, there is a way ....

Starting from your knot structure, just fold your eye over the two ends, then pull your two eye legs working out the slack, dress it and you have brought the bowline on a bight into light  ;).

Two topologically equivalent TIB knots, with the latter, being a far cry from the former in a functional and practical sense.

You also get full credit for your quality graphics, as well as your lovely knot related background  :).

Cheers!
Going knots