Author Topic: rope clamp, friction hitch from bight, named pallastek  (Read 521 times)

bepal

  • New Member
  • *
  • Posts: 4
rope clamp, friction hitch from bight, named pallastek
« on: June 27, 2020, 05:07:43 PM »
rope clamp, friction hitch  from bight, named  pallastek


Dear Reader
My Name is Bernd living in Germany.
History:
I use many years the cow-hitch and bend it from a bight like kite-surfer to with. By the time see and learn the prusik
and was impressed. Once a time i thought whats happen bending a non-symmetric prusik
 and was i get was this stich (see picture). I  use it six jears now and does not find it as well known communicated.

Its like a half prusik combined with a half cow-stich.  You lay/bend it from a bight (or in a endless loop like maritim D-loops)
 - no endparts where needed -
with one finger a double turn and with the thumb only one turn an dress it an store it on the thumb (with execises in less than 2 seconds).
After that you shift it  over one or more ropes/cables and pull the two parts simultanously apart.
I tye both Endparts together with overhand knot to get symmetric tension on both endparts- but its not nessesary needed.
Normaly it  dress itself like a prusik. In this view its a 3/4 Prusik.
Searching in Knot compendians i find the Magnum Stitch (ABOK   #1736 )
wich is  in the first view nearly identic

But it has  other physics (means in Form, Power and pull direction angle) and useability and applications.

versus Form:
 Magnus_hitch use one rope/line as staying end (versus double lines from a bight)
 Magnus_hitch get its friction pull the staying line in 90 degree
 (versus <=  90 to = 90 degree by pull both lines in direction to the one tourn likely a curryclamp or swabish_hitch )
 Magnus_hitch use one tension part and one loose part (versus two tension-parts like prusik )
 Magnus_hitch has eventually need to secure the loose part (versus havn't a loose part )
 Magnus_hitch can only carry a load for one line. (versus two thinner lines can be thinner  in cramped conditions but
       by more securest stronger friction )
 Magnus_hitch is disable to form with a endless  D-loop rope cause you can't get a knot in a loop
 Magnus_hitch is more complicated and needs more Time and Attention to build (versus forms it nearly itself like a prusik)

versus Application:
 Best application is to put the Stek over the own endparts give two adjustable loops
 can get more than one Stitch in a endless loop and can quickly bridging or enforce a damaged rope part
 can carry bundles of things is self pinching and not self-opened (some bindings was in the same condition after a couple of jears)
 knot the free ends together to have a balanced tension point or a handy ?bight to carry or take it on a wall mounted hook.
 easy to tighten it by move the free parts  apart or if the end together tyed you pull simply on both parts
Its like a  instant Stich you can use everywhere.

versus build:
 you can use but not need a rope end part
 you normaly take the middle a bight of a rope or bundle
 you can build it in air with fingers and motions or
       put three loops on a table and pick the rings with one finger like a asynchron Prusik
 with exercise build in less then 3 seconds, normaly needs about 10 sec

See my Website with short videos
http://www.pallastek.de



alanleeknots

  • Sr. Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 525
Re: rope clamp, friction hitch from bight, named pallastek
« Reply #1 on: June 28, 2020, 08:47:28 AM »
bepal,
         Here is a screenshot picture of you work, no sure how is your set up and what you trying to do, so I
         have no comment on your work. If for general use and the standard parts are free to tie any where,
         Bowline on a bight is good enough to do the job ( see second picture).
         Here is a video "TIB Prusik loop tie to ring"  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cE-ZrKTTa2g
         tying the last step of the knot, I keep turning the knot inside out, this way make life easy.
         謝謝 alanleeknots
 

Keystoner

  • On Walkabout
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 87
Re: rope clamp, friction hitch from bight, named pallastek
« Reply #2 on: June 28, 2020, 02:56:02 PM »
Bernd, thanks and nice work on your website.  That appears to be a very versatile knot.  As you mentioned, it appears to have elements of a Cow Hitch and Prusik.  I think it has elements of a Taut Line as well.
« Last Edit: June 28, 2020, 03:10:08 PM by Keystoner »

bepal

  • New Member
  • *
  • Posts: 4
Re: rope clamp, friction hitch from bight, named pallastek
« Reply #3 on: June 28, 2020, 03:11:38 PM »
@alanleeknots
Many thanks for your response.
I also find the inside-out an excellent property of this type of knots.

You address the aspect of the clamping effect of the Prusik. This sticks in both directions.
I guess it was due to the symmetry and the simple bond, not to make a job clamping in both directions
at the same Knot, which of course can also be desired.

In certain applications, clamping in the opposite direction is not necessary or is a hindrance.
When climbing the rope, moving the Prusik up with one hand is  not easy possible also
when sailing use it as an improvised rope clamp.
In this respect, the Prusik sometimes performs twice, which, however, can not be desired.

With this knot presented, the position of the individual turn must be observed -
the clamping effect is good when pulling both parts towards the single turn.

In the opposite direction it is  easier to move because the second clamping element is missing (more similar to "swabish hitch").
In the case of a loop, it can be used as not opening (strangulating) or as not closing (plus adjustable) tool.
In mostly cases i  use  the strangling form as a sustainable reusable and easy to open cable tie.
When connecting two ropes with an endless loop (D-loop), it must be tyed twice as a not opening (strangulating) form.
Best regards
Bernd

agent_smith

  • Sr. Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1177
Re: rope clamp, friction hitch from bight, named pallastek
« Reply #4 on: June 28, 2020, 11:41:13 PM »
Wie Gehts Bepal?
Thanks for posting here...

I read your post but am not 100% certain if your presentation is a claim of originality?
That is, are you making a claim that you invented this particular hitch?

Claims of originality are tricky...and often turn out to be re-discoveries of someone else's creation.

With that said...

The image you posted in your original (initial) post is actually one of the steps for tying a 'Purcell'.

The Purcell has been known and used since the 1970's - its an asymmetric slide and grip hitch.
Its often employed as an adjustable 'lanyard' in fall protection systems.
However, it is intended for use only as a 'restraint' system, and not for 'fall-arrest'.

See my attached image for reference.
In tying a 'Purcell' - hundreds (thousands) of people would have reached your presentation as part of the tying process.
However, the Purcell has one more turn and pass-through, which creates an odd number of 'coils' (5).
Your presentation has 3 coils in an asymmetric arrangement.
The Purcell is also 'asymmetric'.
« Last Edit: June 28, 2020, 11:42:42 PM by agent_smith »

Dan_Lehman

  • Sr. Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3903
Re: rope clamp, friction hitch from bight, named pallastek
« Reply #5 on: June 29, 2020, 06:10:15 PM »
With this knot presented, the position of the individual turn must be observed -
the clamping effect is good when pulling both parts towards the single turn.

In the opposite direction it ...
... does not hold (if both ends are loaded),
which is a fault coming in the **2nd** Edition
of On Rope --though I've not seen anyone point
this out, but me (even though others have
recommended this book, in arborist area,
where the Schwabisch hitch is known and so
the wrong-way presentation of the 2nd edition
should've been an egregious error noted).

Bob Thrun's "Prusiking" article mentioned this
knot.


--dl*
====

alanleeknots

  • Sr. Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 525
Re: rope clamp, friction hitch from bight, named pallastek
« Reply #6 on: June 29, 2020, 09:27:50 PM »
Quote
bepal,
         Here is a screenshot picture of you work, no sure how is your set up and what you trying to do, so I
         have no comment on your work
                I don't want to comment because  50% load on the knot again 100% load on standing part, I believe it will slip.
                So today I have a few quick test, it slip bad. no sure how many more wraps can we add to the knot to stop the slipping,
                謝謝 alanleeknots
« Last Edit: June 29, 2020, 09:29:24 PM by alanleeknots »

alanleeknots

  • Sr. Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 525
Re: rope clamp, friction hitch from bight, named pallastek
« Reply #7 on: July 01, 2020, 07:25:01 AM »
Hi All,  Here is another way to tie TIB Purcell knot 3 coils and 5 coils.
           Hope you like it.   謝謝 alanleeknots
            https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n9OLfYDGQ2s

bepal

  • New Member
  • *
  • Posts: 4
Re: rope clamp, friction hitch from bight, named pallastek
« Reply #8 on: July 01, 2020, 03:21:40 PM »
thank you very much for your time and research

@alanleeknots
try again - pull simultanously with both ends to the side with the one coil and
use a thinner line to grep a thicker rope or a bundle of two ropes than you must
get a instantly heavy blocking.
Use lines thinner 10 mm.
Thiker ropes may not bend enough.

On the question whether I claim discovery:
In fact, I find it very unlikely that this very simple hitch in the course of the use of ropes in the last 80000 years of mankind  hasn't already been used, it's certainly not one of my inventions.
 However, there are no practical applications, (e.g. as tautline hitch,  "reusable instant CableTie") published available. 
( Thrun's hint should come closest to this and probably has it rated for vertical applications. )

By the way: is it possible to get a picture of Thrun's illustration ?
 1998 issue of Arborist News , (1973, p. 5)

 So far i state:
 The geometric form is mentioned,
 - with abok, however, with the same geometry and not as knot but only as arbitrary
   Reinforcement to be added in a given lashing function .
 - And not In its lashing function described by me and as an adjustable double loop
    (adjustable double Bowline, Softshakle, tautline etc.).
   The knot seams is apparently not detected.

 - One coil is contained as a basic element in most simple Knots.
   In Purcell (1970) the Prusik is already known as the name for double twist with endless
   line (4 turns) ove a rope has been known.

Matter of one Coil
A - From the point of view of Prusik users Purcell is a Prusik with an additional
     upper turn and therefore asymmetrical, but is specified with its own name.
B - From the point of view of Swabich users Purcell is also a Swabish Hitch with a lower turn more
     and as asymmetrical as Swabish Hitch in principle.
     but is specified under the name Purcell.
C - If a Knot is not specified with an identifier, it can alternatively be specified based on the
      Prusik "point of view" as type Prusik in variant plus/minus one coil
   -  in the Swabich "point of view" as type Swabish in variant plus/minus one coil 
      can be described.     

In this manner the hitch to be discussed here would be after procedure
A as Prusik minus one lower turn or by procedure and after procedure
B as Swabish stitch minus one upper turn. 
So I think  also one coil manners to see another but not a new Knot;

Also as various descriptions according to type A and type B suggest, an additional coil influences
very strong the mode of action e.g. to increased safety or increased or reduced friction
and may have developed into a name specification with a group of coils.

As In Dan_Lehman's post mentioned sources i read:
" Thrun illustrated a "Prusik knot with an odd number of coils" (1973, p. 5), and his
 description of how to tie, use, and adjust this knot agrees perfectly
with the Schwabisch.
In On Rope, Smith and Padgett show a Prusik tied with three,
four, and five coils, "

The consideration of the characteristics of the variants of Prusik and asymmetrical Swabish hitch
seems to play in the vertical environment where a hanging rope is found
and high safety is needed; additional coils should bring advantages, while the
 friction nodes (Tautline Hitch ) in a non-vertical environment can manage with fewer turns
can.

A specification or description by name as a node seems to be open
 til yet although there is a high practical and daily variety of uses as
http://www.pallastek.de want to show.
The knot to be discussed here, with quickly laid turns, is excellently suited
for countless applications in workshop, household, outdoor and maritime environments.
And contrary to the statement of Thrun the knot can not only produced with a line Part
but rather, for example, from a cove or sling and stick it onto objects/bundles or
use it as a terminal node on a tautline by inside-out conversion
and use it as an instant cabletie that ties as fast as a shoelace.
Examples See website above.

Best regards
Bernd


Translated with www.DeepL.com/Translator (free version)

bepal

  • New Member
  • *
  • Posts: 4
Re: rope clamp, friction hitch from bight, named pallastek
« Reply #9 on: July 01, 2020, 08:30:55 PM »
@alanleeknots
   see your 3coil Swabish hitch TiB today on youtube, please use for this Knot
 firm material-lines - weak one will slip.

Dan_Lehman

  • Sr. Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3903
Re: rope clamp, friction hitch from bight, named pallastek
« Reply #10 on: July 02, 2020, 12:27:20 AM »
As In Dan_Lehman's post mentioned sources i read:
" Thrun illustrated a "Prusik knot with an odd number of coils" (1973, p. 5), and his
 description of how to tie, use, and adjust this knot agrees perfectly
with the Schwabisch.
In On Rope, Smith and Padgett show a Prusik tied with three,
four, and five coils, " ...
Again, just to be sure people know ::
in the FIRST/original version of On Rope, the hitch
is correctly shown (w/variety of coils --as though
readers NEED to see what each looks like ??);
but in On Rope II, the hitches are presented
upside-down (with a change in text to match),

AND THIS IS WRONG!

--dl*
====

alanleeknots

  • Sr. Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 525
Re: rope clamp, friction hitch from bight, named pallastek
« Reply #11 on: July 02, 2020, 08:14:54 PM »
@bepal,
              I only  understand simple English,  when using words to describe the function of knots, little hard for me to understand .
              I only respond to the picture knots.
              Here is your picture knot  , in the case it will not hold and it will slip with light load.   謝謝 alanleeknots

alanleeknots

  • Sr. Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 525
Re: rope clamp, friction hitch from bight, named pallastek
« Reply #12 on: July 04, 2020, 02:01:33 AM »
Hi All,
Quote
Hi All,  Here is another way to tie TIB Purcell knot 3 coils and 5 coils.
           Hope you like it.   謝謝 alanleeknots
            https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n9OLfYDGQ2s

          Have some free time, check on youtube see if anyone have tie the same way that I have, so far I think I am safe.
          Here are some of them below, they are fine too.  謝謝 alanleeknots
             https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S8js8e5BqM0
             https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aGXvOS2M7GM&t=343s
             https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hLNn5Ewouqg

Dan_Lehman

  • Sr. Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3903
Re: rope clamp, friction hitch from bight, named pallastek
« Reply #13 on: July 04, 2020, 05:34:50 PM »
              I only respond to the picture knots.
              Here is your picture knot  , in the case it will not hold and it will slip with light load.   謝謝 alanleeknots
Yes and no, Alan : the OP shows the hitch pulled
in the correct & opposite direction to what you
show --essentially, the differences between the
original & revised editions of On Rope.

(If one has multiple turns in both halves,
then that's another thing to consider :: IMO,
I'm coming to the opinion that in COIL-TO
coils --the Rolling hitch, e.g.; the near side
of a Prusik h.; the Hedden & NOT Klemheist--
there is quicker diminishing effect than with
COIL-AWAY coils, where "Chinese finger trap"
mechanics can be well spread over multiple
coils; vs. the coil-to which need to tighten
*in place*, so to speak, by flow of tension
across so much friction.)


--dl*
====

agent_smith

  • Sr. Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1177
Re: rope clamp, friction hitch from bight, named pallastek
« Reply #14 on: July 05, 2020, 01:49:15 AM »
Hello bepal,

I am finding the translation (at times) difficult to follow.

Quote
On the question whether I claim discovery:
In fact, I find it very unlikely that this very simple hitch in the course of the use of ropes in the last 80000 years of mankind  hasn't already been used, it's certainly not one of my inventions.
 However, there are no practical applications, (e.g. as tautline hitch,  "reusable instant CableTie") published available. 
The reason I asked this basic question is because you posted in the section titled: New knot investigations.
Clearly and obviously, if a person posts in this section, it is strongly implied that the person is making a claim of originality.

Quote
Matter of one Coil
A - From the point of view of Prusik users Purcell is a Prusik with an additional
     upper turn and therefore asymmetrical, but is specified with its own name.
B - From the point of view of Swabich users Purcell is also a Swabish Hitch with a lower turn more
     and as asymmetrical as Swabish Hitch in principle.
     but is specified under the name Purcell.
C - If a Knot is not specified with an identifier, it can alternatively be specified based on the
      Prusik "point of view" as type Prusik in variant plus/minus one coil
   -  in the Swabich "point of view" as type Swabish in variant plus/minus one coil
      can be described.     
I disagree with the underlying concepts advanced by bepal.

1. In the first instance, all of these knot structures are properly classified as; "Slide and grip hitches".
The term 'Prusik' is simply one type of slide and grip hitch.
And the 'Swabisch is another type of slide and grip hitch, and so on.
There is a significant number of different types of slide and grip hitches - all having different geometries.

In the case of the Purcell, it is in fact configured as a 'Noose hitch".
That is, the Hitch component is tied around its own SPart (standing part).
In doing so, it creates an adjustable 'eye' (it is not a fixed eye).

I see that some (on the internet) describe a 'Swabisch' as a 'Swabisch prusik' (which is incorrect).
To do so is an oxymoron.
More correct is to say; "Swabisch slide and grip hitch".

2. The 'Swabisch hitch' has a different geometry.
It does not take the form of a noose hitch.
Also, it is formed from a linear length or cord - not from a round sling.
Furthermore, the geometry of the turns/coils is different to the Purcell (yes, both employ 5 turns/coils but, in a different geometry).

Arborists tend to use slide and grip hitches that are formed from linear lengths of cord - rather than a round sling.
And this is a crucial concept for the 'Swabisch slide and grip hitch'.
Case in point: I would challenge you to tie a 'Swabisch slide and grip hitch' using a round sling (not a linear length of cord) - and tie it on a fixed rope without access to either end of that fixed rope (ie you are cheating if you try to install the Swabisch by sliding it up from one end of the fixed rope).
In contrast, a #1763 Prusik hitch can be tied on a fixed rope without access to either end of that rope.
A Purcell, in its originally conceived form, is not attached to a fixed rope...it is intended to be a 'noose' - with an adjustable eye. And indeed, the originator conceived the Purcell as a fall-arrest device which in my personal view is a risky proposition. I refer you to Richard Delaney's tests of the Purcell which demonstrate that it fails when used in the way Reed Thorne (USA) intended. Reed Thorne has some great ideas...but, his concept of using a Purcell as a fall-arrest device is dangerous. Richard Delaney (Rope test lab) has videos demonstrating the failure mode.

In contrast, climbers/mountaineers tend to use slide and grip hitches that are formed from a round sling.
An example of which is the #1763 Prusik hitch (named after its inventor) - the Prusik hitch is formed from a round sling.

Topologically and geometrically, the Swabisch and the Purcell are different types of 'slide and grip hitches'.
« Last Edit: July 05, 2020, 02:10:53 AM by agent_smith »