Author Topic: Name that Knot  (Read 1299 times)

JohnC

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Name that Knot
« on: February 09, 2022, 09:52:25 AM »
I was teaching myself Ashley's Bend (ABoK#1452), from ABoK itself, and I made a mistake.

To be honest I always struggle a bit with a picture of a knot, half formed, floating in mid air and with arrows indicating what needs to be done to complete it. I need to know how to hold my hands and what my fingers do. But I appreciate that Ashley didn't have time or space to show multi-step photos of himself tying over 3,000 knots. So my usual method, after awkwardly arranging the cordage as per the picture, is to then experiment with how I'm actually going to tie it for myself.

So I did this and came up with a pretty good method that I was happy with, and repeated that enough times to lodge it in my muscle memory.

But then I realised that it didn't look a lot like the completed knot that Ashley shows. This didn't faze me at first because - fan as I am of Ashley's - his drawings sometimes leave something to be desired. So I went to some other sources and my completed knot didn't resemble their Ashley's bend either. So I went back to painstakingly arranging from the drawing and found that what I had taught myself was not Ashley's bend at all.

I can't take a picture right now, but it's trivially easy to tie the "Too Stupid to Follow Mr Ashley Properly Knot" (working name till I find out what it is). Just follow his drawing exactly with one difference: where the two bights are linked, go over where he goes under and vice versa. Everything else is the same.

Staring at the result it seemed strangely familiar. Eventually I realised that it resembles a Zeppelin bend with the two ends exiting on the same side instead of different sides.

So, what do we call that?

[Edit: pictures added]
« Last Edit: February 10, 2022, 05:36:48 AM by JohnC »
John

JohnC

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Re: Name that Knot
« Reply #1 on: February 11, 2022, 05:54:56 AM »
I hope none of you took on extra staff to investigate this, as I have stumbled across the answer.

My mystery knot is in fact ABOK#1408, which must have been known already in the 1940s, because Ashley doesn't put his "whale spout" image on it to indicate an original discovery.

Now, if you stubbornly persist in not buying your own copy of The Ashley Book of Knots, then shame on you, but just this once I'll quote him on this knot:

Quote
1408 Here is another bend with the same untrustworthy features as the "WHATNOT", yet in the form shown here it ranks among the securest bends known.

He then goes on to describe #1409 which is slightly different but is "quite untrustworthy".

What a shame. 1408 is virtually a Zeppelin bend with different exits for the ends, but tainted by its evil twin and presumably shunned for fear of accidentally tying #1409 instead of #1408.
« Last Edit: February 11, 2022, 05:55:54 AM by JohnC »
John

Dan_Lehman

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Re: Name that Knot
« Reply #2 on: February 14, 2022, 08:22:00 PM »
My mystery knot is in fact ABOK#1408,
which must have been known already in the 1940s,
because Ashley doesn't put his "whale spout" image on it to indicate an original discovery.
The whale's presence/absence isn't to be taken for hard
fact/judgement --Ashley doesn't whale #1425, 1452, 1453...
but he DATES them, right?!
He doesn't well understand them, IMO.

For tying #1452, one should avoid the too-clever-by-half
arrange-things-just-so-then-all at once put in tails and ...!
tying method and form one side's OH first and reeve in the
joining end per knot you want.  In #1452's case, one has
options on what to get : w/1st OH formed, tail rising UPwards,
bring 2nd end around the tail from OH "belly"'s side down
between tail & spine-side of OH, and then go 'round the
2nd SPart and ... return into the 1st OH's point you entered.
THIS method ensures an easily loosenable knot.
Swap the two tails per #1409, and one can get a nice
jamming knot if collars are ample enough, which might
be just the desired thing for, say, springy slick PP cord
and a light-duty job.

Quote
1408 Here is another bend with the same untrustworthy features as the "WHATNOT",
yet in the form shown here it ranks among the securest bends known.
...
1408 is virtually a Zeppelin bend with different exits for the ends ...
Yet seems less slack-secure than Thrun's joint (aka "zeppelin"),
but, yes, much like it (better curvature of SParts, IMO).

Quote
What a shame. ...  but tainted by its evil twin and
presumably shunned for fear of accidentally tying #1409 instead of #1408.
I don't shun it, but tie it correctly and use it,
sometimes.  Still, #1452 & --25 fill needs well (the latter
for slack-security i.p.), so #1408 & #1048/Shakehands
(Ashley loads wrong ends, for who-knows-why) and
others just sit on the shelf ... .

BTW, some of these can be seen as derivatives &
improvements over the (capsized-form) carrick bend
--looking to stuff a tail's diameter in SParts' turns
for both more security and gentler SPart bending.


--dl*
====

alana

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Re: Name that Knot
« Reply #3 on: April 11, 2022, 12:19:48 PM »
showing all the signs of leading to the discovery of the in-bight zeppelin bend, i'd say !   :)

🔎

 

anything