Help Identifying Loop Knot

[DrTim]

Hello, I wondered if any of you could help me identify this rather nice loop knot.  I spotted it some time ago on a sailing dinghy, but have not been able to find any reference to it.  Any ideas?

[roo]

Hello, I wondered if any of you could help me identify this rather nice loop knot.  I spotted it some time ago on a sailing dinghy, but have not been able to find any reference to it.  Any ideas?

I haven't found anything yet, but I find it interesting that at least the knot body can be seen in ABOK 1059.

Is there anything else you can tell us about it?

[Dan_Lehman]

Looks like something ad-lib'd !
And maybe not stable enough for serious work!?

Thanks,
--dl*
====

[DrTim]

Many thanks for your replies.  In a sense, I'm relieved that it is not an obvious pattern - It has taken me quite a while to put it forward to the experts.

A little more background: I first came across the loop when I was using a sailing-club's dinghy in Staffordshire England, probably 10 years ago now. I remember the little vessel being a Mirror Dinghy.  Being interested in knots and rigging I found this unusual loop tied in one of the halyards.  Having not come across it before, I spent quite a long time teasing it open until I could copy it accurately using a spare piece of cord.  I should add, that there was not another example on the boat.

It?s such a beautiful loop that I started using it, usually replacing the bowline on standing and running rigging.  I?ve found it to be a reliable and strong loop and exquisitely neat.

My thoughts to this point, have increasingly leant towards the knot being an incorrectly tied bowline which just happens to work!

I hope this helps.

[Dan_Lehman]

In a sense, I'm relieved that it is not an obvious pattern -
It has taken me quite a while to put it forward to the experts.

A little more background: I first came across the loop when
I was using a sailing-club's dinghy in Staffordshire England,
probably 10 years ago now. I remember the little vessel being
a Mirror Dinghy.  Being interested in knots and rigging
I found this unusual loop tied in one of the halyards.
...

 I should add, that there was not another example on the boat.

Interesting bit of history here, of a knot found
In The Wild!  "not another example", but there
were other reasonable opportunities for such?!

usually replacing the bowline on standing and running rigging.
I've found it to be a reliable and strong loop and exquisitely neat.

But it's nowhere nearly as easily tied/untied as the BWL.
 (Indeed, it should jam pretty hard, I'd think!)
And how would you know it to be "strong" : have you
had knots ever break?!

the knot being an incorrectly tied bowline[/i]which just happens to work!

Though, per my remark re un/tying, it takes
quite some diversion from the BWL, being
an overhand base with a fiddly closure, and
not PET (post-eye tiable).

One can SEE this knot in a simple reconnection of ends
--i.e., the parts coming out of the knot/nub--
for Ashley's #1045, which can be tied in a sort
form-a-constrictor "Z" structure and then tuck
out one loop through the other.  --to wit:
https://www.flickr.com/photos/59608794@N06/6090674279


Thanks,       
--dl*
====

[DrTim]

Thank you so much for taking the time with this.  I?ve learnt such a lot. 

I see what you mean about the relationship to Ashley's #1045, that?s an amazing piece of deduction!

Absolutely, I appreciate this loop is nowhere near as useful as the bowline, but I do find its aesthetics, perfect lead and security (you were right to haul me up on the word ?strength?) very appealing.

I just wonder how it came about?

I?ll see if I can get in contact with the sailing club where I first discovered the knot and try to dig a bit deeper.

Many thanks again 

[DrTim]

Just to add, that I've now contacted the sailing club in question, but I fear, after all this time, to find the original tyer of the knot might be a 'big ask'. 

However I would still like to pursue the identification with the guild, so should I now post my question under New Knot Investigations ?

Once again thanks to you both for your help with this.

Tim

[Dan_Lehman]

I just wonder how it came about?

Having "invented" probably (it's a chore, counting)
over 2_000 knots, I can speak to how they (can)
"come about":

sometimes by design,
sometimes by missing the intended target,
sometimes by I'm-not-sure-what-just-happened,
sometimes by finding In-The-Wild,
often by looking at something and wondering
 "What if ...?!" and fiddling that,
sometimes by doing just the sort of seeing one
  thing with a variation as in seeing #1045 from above,
and sometimes (less, alas, for me) by deliberate trying
  out the possibilities inherent in some *tangle*
  (e.g., going 'round the "bowline" stucture to get
    the net knot, 2 sheet bends, 2 Lapp bends, 2  BWLs,
    2 becket bends, 2 Eskimo BWLs, ...)

The number is overwhelming.  I'm now working to get
my fiddlings out of the "rope record" into "illustration
record", but with not good enough organization yet
for making helpful presentations.
(How to show off some gazillion "bowlines" ?!).

"Invention" credits can be a humorous/tricky thing
in some cases : e.g. GRShaw's 1933 book has, by
step#3 illustration's mistaken arrow'd completion path,
the infamous Constrictor, but presumably HE
(author also illustrator (yea!)) would claim ignorance
of the C. even though readers of his book MIGHT
have gotten it from him --from his book's mistake.
And Clyde Soles's Outdoor Knots book has a thief
knot with strangle tie-offs, but he claims he doesn't
even know how to tie the thief (no, and in a sense,
he didn't : but he rotated the tied structure
 (surely he's using a short length of line, not a full coil!)
when  tying the strangles and thus got them catercorner
vs. mirror'd (reversing one side's SPart/tail) and ...
that implies thief not square!)
Who, then, would be the inventor?!

(Ashley's #1016 eye knot is copied from an older,
seamen's book by Luce, and yet my surmise is that
the knot apparently presented --via illustration-- is
in fact mistaken --that a twin-eyes knot was intended
(Ashley provides the rationale for such in talking about
a later-shown-by-him 2-eye knot) but the given sketch
is either botched or catching the tying process part way
to that knot!  -and so a knot is born of artist error?!
)


--dl*
====

[DrTim]

I find this all fascinating and certainly resonates with my professional research which concerns the evolution of adaptive technologies (at present focussing on the Neolithic).

What you describe includes a perfect example of Prof. Donald Schon?s Reflection in Action. Where - through a sequence of (sometimes seemingly random) events - the outcomes are reflected upon and adapted (or not) for another sequence.

I tend to call these outcomes ?emergent properties? (a term I borrowed from ecology), which I think neatly expresses the new realisations which surface through lightly-regulated actions on materials. Your term ?what if? perfectly describes these realisations - a term often used in the reflective-practice discourse.

I ramble on?and you?re probably very familiar with all this stuff. 

Anyway, back to the loop.  At some time, I?ll present it on ?New Knot Investigations? and see what emerges, but in the meantime thanks for your time and the sharing of knowledge, it?s very much appreciated.

Tim