Author Topic: BUTTERFLY KNOT (#1053) - Technical paper  (Read 690 times)

agent_smith

  • Sr. Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1204
BUTTERFLY KNOT (#1053) - Technical paper
« on: May 13, 2020, 05:57:24 AM »
I am gathering data for a technical paper on #1053 Butterfly.
This will be a comprehensive work - with high quality imagery and historical facts.
I will include other bi/tri-axially loadable TIB eye knots in the paper...so if you would like your creation showcased in high quality imagery, you should contact me.
Jamming (in various loading profiles) will also be investigated...but only in human rated EN certified ropes and Sterling HTP (not paracord, fishing line, or home hardware el cheapo cordage).

Some data points that need to be verified/confirmed:

1. First recorded publication of #1053 (eg was it AA Burger or was there an earlier publication?)
2. First recorded publication of #1053 derived Butterfly bend (eg was it Phil D Smith or was there an earlier publication?)
3. First recorded publication of corresponding eye knots derived from Butterfly bend / #1053
4. More info on 'Mobius' - whom Xarax posits was the first person to advance the concept of Either End Loadable (EEL) fixed eye knots (particularly one TIB fixed eye knot derived from #1053).
5. Any practical modifications to #1053 that boost performance in eye loading also welcome (as opposed to impractical modifications that only add unnecessary complexity for little gain).
6. More historical info on Brion Toss publication of his 'Strait bend' - which I believe was in 1984 ('Riggers Apprentice' book)? Phil D Smith pre-dates Brion Toss but, its a part of history that I want to include...

Rib poking is also welcome from the usual suspects :)

Dan_Lehman

  • Sr. Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3947
Re: BUTTERFLY KNOT (#1053) - Technical paper
« Reply #1 on: May 14, 2020, 12:04:56 AM »
By "eye loading", you mean what?
(Every eye knot should be this, by one sense;
there's another loading established as "ring loading".)

Something not explored in the case of these mid-line
eye knots is :

well, what IS their specific purpose?
I.e., there is the sense of merely TIB
(a convenience to getting a rather usual eye knot w/o needing ends).
These cases I think are NOT what is wanted for this analysis.

There are the "directional" knots which term makes
sense to distinguish itself from the above by implying
"through" loading being at least a possibility.

And then those that I jocularly refer to as "ambidextrous",
in being able to be loaded qua eye knot with either end
being the SPart.

BUT, to the latter two instances, one might wonder how
the knot **re-**performs in Loading_A after having been
subjected to significant Loading_B.  (And to this we need
to ask, also, in what scenarios is such a knot expected to
be used, ... what loadings?)
E.g., a "Y-hang" is a case where a rope used for descent/ascent
in caving is given two anchors --for back-up or for helping to
position the rope--; and a mid-line eye knot can provide either
the full material to go to a 2nd anchor or the eye for a lanyard
to close the connection to it.
The expected loading is on all *ends* of the eye knot, with
the downward end getting 100% force and, say, the eye and
opposite end each 50% (so each eye leg gets 25%).  If one
of the anchors fails, then either we have pure *through* loading
(eye side failing), or else eye-knot loading with the failed anchor
being mere *tail*.

And either way, it's likely that the changed loading will remain
for this use of the line.  But are there cases where one might
expect a change back from some loading into another?

... and so on ... .

Conceivably, were there some wonderful aspect of a non-TIB
eye knot that could take multiple loadings, it might be used
--for that Y-hang, e.g., one wouldn't need to work with all
that much rope in tying, being near the end.  Typically,
"TIB" is expected, but I just raise the point here that
other knots could have a reason d'etre.


--dl*
====

KC

  • Sr. Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 290
    • latest project
Re: BUTTERFLY KNOT (#1053) - Technical paper
« Reply #2 on: May 14, 2020, 09:36:30 AM »
By "eye loading", you mean what?
(Every eye knot should be this, by one sense;
there's another loading established as "ring loading".)
.
i think we need to leave room here for eye not being loaded;
as a continuous flow SPart to SPart,
but isolating weak section.
Or mostly unused handle etc.
.
Then we have extra turns frictions as path too with this:
When I tie the #1053 Butterfly I use the three coils on my hand method.
I suggest trying four coils using the same method (or any method with the same result.), passing the coils over three times and then through them all.
Using climbing rated rope and cords I have not been able to jam the loop after loading in any direction.
I haven't tried itty bitty strings of soft materials.
It seems that the additional turn within the nub adds sufficient bulk to offset jamming.

SS
Rope-n-Saw Life
"Nature, to be commanded, must be obeyed" -Sir Francis Bacon
We now return you to the safety of normal thinking peoples.
~ Please excuse the interruption; thanx -the mgmt.~

agent_smith

  • Sr. Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1204
Re: BUTTERFLY KNOT (#1053) - Technical paper
« Reply #3 on: May 14, 2020, 12:53:19 PM »
per Dan Lehman:
Quote
By "eye loading", you mean what?
(Every eye knot should be this, by one sense;
there's another loading established as "ring loading".)
Obviously, I haven't written the paper yet - and it will be a collaboration and also peer reviewed.
Loading profiles will be explained - along with supporting high quality images to clearly explain what is going on.

...

Very briefly:
I'm going to steer clear of the phrase 'ring loading' because is can be applied in too w-i-d-e interpretations.
Instead I will use more 'meaningful' terms such as:
[ ] circumferential (ie hoop stress) loading of the eye
[ ] Cross-loading of the eye in a defined axis
[ ] Bi-axial (through) loading from SPart-to-SPart
[ ] Tri-axial loading
[ ] Directional eye loading - in the axis of an SPart
[ ] Either End Loadable (EEL)

There will be high quality images to illustrate each of the loading profiles.
Will also non TIB fixed eye knots derived from #1053 - as well as TIB fixed eye knot - existing end of line (as opposed to existing mid-line).

agent_smith

  • Sr. Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1204
Re: BUTTERFLY KNOT (#1053) - Technical paper
« Reply #4 on: May 30, 2020, 09:01:40 AM »
Dear knot geeks,

I need assistance with the following please:

1. Is Bushby's drawing at page 62 in his journal "Note on Knots' published Jan 1902 the earliest known record of #1053 Butterfly knot?
(its at the bottom of the page).

There are further drawings of the 'Butterfly' in Vol 1 part 2.
Bushby even shows some variant dressings...

2. Can someone please decipher Bushby's hand writing describing his knot on page 62, Volume 1 (see attached image).
The first image isn't a Butterfly - the drawing at the bottom of his page is the actual Butterfly.
His hand writing refers to the top image...there is no name assigned to the bottom image?
Reference links:
https://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=4804.msg42164#msg42164
http://librarygallery.marinersmuseum.org/items/show/49

3. Is Wright and Magowan (1928) the first to publish #1053 Butterfly with twisted eye legs? (see attached image).

4. Does anyone know history of the 'double Butterfly knot'?

5. Does anyone have history on girth hitched Butterfly knot?
Note: Richard Delaney had published images of this variation on his website at
Link: https://www.ropelab.com.au/the-awesome-alpine-butterfly/ (scroll down)
I will also contact Richard...but, he states on his website that he isn't 100% sure if he discovered it...

EDIT NOTE: Fixed Bushby image
« Last Edit: May 30, 2020, 11:04:04 AM by agent_smith »

KC

  • Sr. Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 290
    • latest project
Re: BUTTERFLY KNOT (#1053) - Technical paper
« Reply #5 on: May 30, 2020, 01:48:46 PM »

A loop (fixed) some-what similar to the last obtained thus
Retain this .  It is A's "Dalhi _______ Knot"
.

A series of apparently unknown knots giving fixed loops can be made in cord without access to the ends in somewhat similar ways from interlaced Overhand Knots.
For instance the loop recommended by the Alpine Club in their 1864 report now approved by the ______ form on p.74 can be made thus

Again another trio of fixed loops of which either side runs, can be made thus
« Last Edit: May 30, 2020, 01:55:56 PM by KC »
Rope-n-Saw Life
"Nature, to be commanded, must be obeyed" -Sir Francis Bacon
We now return you to the safety of normal thinking peoples.
~ Please excuse the interruption; thanx -the mgmt.~

Dan_Lehman

  • Sr. Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3947
Re: BUTTERFLY KNOT (#1053) - Technical paper
« Reply #6 on: May 30, 2020, 09:55:32 PM »
1. Is Bushby's drawing at page 62 in his journal "Note on Knots'
published Jan 1902 the earliest known record of #1053 Butterfly knot?
(its at the bottom of the page).
There was no "publishing" until the Mariners'
Museum made the very private document public
in 2018? (yea!)  There is now also a published
(in hardcopy) IGKT transcription of Bushby's work;
but one should refer to the original, for accuracy.

Per Bushby's annotations/comments,
he appears to have found it for himself,
though admittedly the crossed-out expresssion
could suggest that he (later) found it wrong
--but that for "free" was surely Bushby just
applying Ockham's razor; his "unknown" maybe
touched him as gratuitous?  However, there is no
citation to show a contradiction to "unknown".

Quote
2. Can someone please decipher Bushby's hand writing describing his knot on page 62, Volume 1 (see attached image).
His script can be challenging, indeed; but it's pretty
consistent & well-articulated :: so, should you puzzle
about some shape, but then find it elsewhere in a word
you are sure of, you should be pretty sure that the same
graphic is the same in the puzzled place!
Lovely hand in the graphic art, too!!

Quote

A loop (fixed) somewhat similar to the last is obtained thus.
//
Retain This      It  is H.'s "Dalliance Knot"

: : : : : : MY REMARKS : : : : : :
(Bushby's reference "H." is my big mystery;
it is definitely NOT what the IGKT transcribers
ascribed it to be (which was "Hasluck's" book,
to which B. has a single reference in Vol.7 for
Nets (IIRC)), though it has so much scent/flavor
of that (such as including this particular knot & name).
Which my best guess is ... because THAT BOOK
is essentially a copy of L.L. HaslOPE's Work periodical
articles (spread out over many issues) on knots.
(These are available on-line, yea!)
A N D . . .
.:.  I figure it must be to LLH's son Pearce L. H.,
who is credited on an also-extant-online book's
front matter as the auther of "Knots and Knotting",
which per the location citations of Bushby, I take
to be/have been some periodical, too
(but of FOUR columns, and all at once over pp. 30-44ish).)
: : : : : : END MY REMARKS : : : : : :

2nd page text:

A series of apparently UNKNOWN knots  [my emphasis, to y/our question!]
giving fixed loops can be made on cord
without access to the free ends, in some-
what similar ways, from interlaced over-
hand knots.  For instance the loop recom-
mended by the Alpine Club in their 1864
Report, now surperseded by the neater form
on p 74, can be made thus :-
    (p 102.)


--dl*
====

Quote
3. Is Wright and Magowan (1928) the first to publish #1053 Butterfly with twisted eye legs? (see attached image).
Ack, I don't have --nor have I seen?-- Berger's
book's image.  (I THINK I don't have that; I don't
recall it, now.  His preceded in date W&M's.)
Quote
4. Does anyone know history of the 'double Butterfly knot'?

5. Does anyone have history on girth hitched Butterfly knot?
Note: Richard Delaney had published images of this variation on his website at
Link: https://www.ropelab.com.au/the-awesome-alpine-butterfly/ (scroll down)
I will also contact Richard...but, he states on his website that he isn't 100% sure if he discovered it...
These sorts of versions can come up by applying
known means of *version-ation*  :o  and one can
imagine various folks fiddling around with it.
(Heck, I might be at 100 knots in 2020 but have
scant familiarity with most, as they are Ivory Tower
creations, not needed solutions to a pressing problem.)

Delaney's remark is like W&M's :: simply allowing that
others might've had the same idea.  As he notes, he is
following a sort of "backflip" (my term!)  used in some
well-known knots.
(Should we quickly go 'round through the gazillions
of eye knots and backflip 'em all so to preclude questions
of subsequent claims of originality?!  And it matters ... how?!)

Whereas, YOUR seeing the stretch of material at the
center of the looks-like-a-single-zeppelin/SmitHunter's bend
as an inchoate 'Z' or "S" to form two eyes/bights is not (yet)
such a common mechanism of variation.  Or the splitting of
the tucked bight into two so to get your double of #1074.

I think Bushby's cleverness likewise puts him in the lead.


--dl*
====

ps: I'm finding it a darn PITA to figure out how to connect
to the pure-view of Bushby's work.  SOMEhow, I just managed,
again, today --but only after many failed efforts.
(It USED to be pretty simple :: Search 'Bushb',
get a page w/listed Vol.s and image at left of text;
and simply click on the image.)  GRRRRR.
(Somewhere I saw pdf. files for PARTS of his Volumes,
not the entire Vol. ?!  No, I want the whole thing.)

« Last Edit: May 30, 2020, 10:01:40 PM by Dan_Lehman »

agent_smith

  • Sr. Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1204
Re: BUTTERFLY KNOT (#1053) - Technical paper
« Reply #7 on: June 03, 2020, 02:18:34 PM »
Need to verify the history of the 'Butterfly knot'.

As far as I can determine - it appears that the earliest knowledge of this (TIB) knot was from Henry Bushby 1902?
If anyone has other information - particularly an earlier reference than 1902 - I would appreciate citations/proof.

A brief timeline is in my attached image...

Dan_Lehman

  • Sr. Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3947
Re: BUTTERFLY KNOT (#1053) - Technical paper
« Reply #8 on: June 12, 2020, 10:03:18 PM »
Need to verify the history of the 'Butterfly knot'.

As far as I can determine - it appears that the earliest knowledge of this (TIB) knot was from Henry Bushby 1902?
If anyone has other information - particularly an earlier reference than 1902 - I would appreciate citations/proof.

A brief timeline is in my attached image...

NB, again to Bushby being a PRIVATE document
(so far as I'm aware) until 2018's publishing and
some few views prior, by a few non-publishing
knot tyers, there was no knowledge FROM him,
only BY him to himself.  (Bob Thrun's zeppelin
knot
& Heinz Prohaska's "Wicklenotten"[sp?] had
more range of outside knowledge,
but we are still right to see the Payne's article in 1976
and Jason Blake's I-forget-where article being what
gave the knowledge to the broad knotting world.
(Actually, Heinz I think had in addition to a 1982?
Austrian article a 1990? NSS Nylon Hwy article,
prior Blake's 1994? IIRC ?)

So, the butterfly comes out into the open, somehow
to linemen if Berger(?) is believed, whose book now
is seen as first publication to present it.

OH, re Bushby, all of his Notes volumes are dated
1902 some month; but he clearly worked on them
over & over across the years, so it's not all so easy
to date any piece of information (alas).

 :)

KC

  • Sr. Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 290
    • latest project
Re: BUTTERFLY KNOT (#1053) - Technical paper
« Reply #9 on: June 13, 2020, 11:21:19 AM »
Girth-Hitching B'fly eye is less self-equalizing as other 'Girthings' as an Achilles fault
>>Girth-Lock can be as separate legs unequally loaded at some angles
>>the more rigid one then resisting even more and mostly loading if not freely/self adjusting on other side of 'argument against' of support vs. load
Indeed very viewable if hard Girth to both support and load and assert load angle not 90degrees to support argument against
>>Free-flowing is most self-equalizing/maximizing on the fly autonomously.
Rope-n-Saw Life
"Nature, to be commanded, must be obeyed" -Sir Francis Bacon
We now return you to the safety of normal thinking peoples.
~ Please excuse the interruption; thanx -the mgmt.~