Author Topic: Newbie doubt - What class do binding knots and the half knot belong to?  (Read 420 times)

NeopsycheMD

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Hi guys! Where under Ashley's 4-fold classification do the halfknot and binding knots fall. 'Knots'? or 'Hitches'? or... Please help me out...
 
-Dr. A.
-Dr. A

SS369

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Good day Dr.A.

No need for multiple post of the same. I've removed your other.

SS369

NeopsycheMD

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Sorry, my bad! Thank you :)
-Dr. A

Dan_Lehman

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As I find the traditional classes for knots not well
suited to the subject, I don't try to fit circles into
triangular holes and so on.

Binders, fro me, fall in the binders class : a knot
tied around an object in a single piece of material
and ends both untensioned --whereas a hitch would
load one.

Things get problematic with knots intended to have
varied loadings, such as a mid-line/inline eye knot.


--dl*
====

NeopsycheMD

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@Dan_Lehman
Phew, that makes so much sense. (As a beginner I'm guilty of reductionist attempts at trying to fit all new incoming information into my current, negligible knowledge on the subject.) Thank you so much, and I hope to continue learning from you guys. G'day!

Dr.A
-Dr. A

KC

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I think of a Hitch as a an endpoint for termination against LINEAR force pull/flow, a Bend as dbl.ended Hitch continuation not termination LINEAR force flow thru a joint/coupling.   Simple as plumbing or wiring to carry /usher different type force flows.
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The linear force input of SPart(s) decreases thru arcs to BE.
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Binding Knots totally different, resist against RADIAL 'glow' of force pushing out evenly all around, no force exiting to any SPart., in fact only arcs, no straight parts (immediate pulls in opposite directions) like ends of linears(Hitch, Bend).  Balanced forces thru arcs until final Nip to BE.  To ABoK classification I say Knot as ties back to self, but Binding Knot to me is special radial form, that needs host .  Not standalone Knot like Bowline.
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If Bag or Constrictor etc. is used as Hitch, it follows linear loading pattern functionally.  Does not load evenly around as in Binding usage with same knot..   For familiarity go by naming convention.  But in actual usage, follow forces in defining I think.
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In further contrasting aspect definition:
I think Sailor Hitch gives the least compressive binding around of Hitch usage from linear input, thus ABoK  choice for swing pivot , as hangs most from top of spar than others seen.  Most abrupt , immediate reduction in force flow towards BE, almost stopping at Top/against side opposite initiating linear input pull. 
« Last Edit: March 28, 2020, 10:01:15 AM by KC »
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NeopsycheMD

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@KC
Yeah, came across one of your earlier posts, with your illustrations too and it does make sense! Thank you so much!!


Edit: another doubt. In the image you,ve shown (attatched), for a binding knot, even though the pull when we tie may be radially inwards, wouldn't the load exerted by the object be OUTWARDS??


Dr. A
« Last Edit: March 28, 2020, 11:15:11 AM by NeopsycheMD »
-Dr. A

KC

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YES!  Sorry missed this,
Loading force i see as radial 'glow' outwards as initiating force into rope in Binding usage;
As rope serves against this 'glow outwards' as containment, limiter.
>>Bind:Contain(envelope), Hitch:Termination(end run), Bend:Coupling(pass thru) 'of forces' each
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Just as in linear loading hitch , rope serves against the input pull.
>>Rope is passive as electrical wire w/o power
>>active force initiating load is ported into rope and then rope holds ground against it , is now empowered by the force it limits range of.
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In Binding, may initially compress bag/load in setup with input of force from outside world.
But in actual usage phase, load is trying to spring back open , bloom open, with equal 'glow force' that rope limits against.
>>no outside world influence to knot classically
>>while hitch is single outside forces into knot, bend is competing mutli from outside in thru SPart(s) input into heart of knot microcosm
>>In Binding, forces are already inside this zone, not mono nor multi inputs inwards from outside as defining differences, follow the forces!
Rope to most situations has no pertinent weight etc., PASSIVE RESPONDER as like hiPower hose, wire, glass fiber; has no force of own
>>only a force trail porting route to apply and manipulate
>>until an ACTIVE force seeks to persist thru the ported channel of rope/hose/wire/glass fiber etc.
Binding is also notably a radial solution against a radial input, and equal initiating force glow to EQUAL force arcs around
>>while linear hitch/bend locks thru DEGRADING force arcs as more linear input to radial hold
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Difference i think is electrical/light/water/air resistance is degrading the initial force;
>>increasing resistance, decreasing load force
in mechanix of rope etc. the resistance is the loading itself,
friction is as the the degrading resistance of separate topic.
So resistance as we see works in 2 factors in rope i think:
>>load resistance to movement is as the loading in other forces air/light/water/electricity etc.;
>>while friction resistance in rope is as the resistance against force of the previous forces
Resistance against distance thus more integral to force in rope/mechanix
>>increasing force in rope by increasing resistance non-frictionally
>>while increase in resistance of non-mechanical forces air/light/water/electricity etc. decreases force ported thru
 as rope friction does.
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This is pretty much jest my own story cartoons in head of how describe to self as making decisions in handling.
>>but has kept me alive in dealing and plotting the rawness of it's forces
Rope to me is generic substance, formed into parts, as wood or metal
>>tho we don't have to separate rope to different pieces to form the 'parts' nor their utilities.
>>nor must we cut, hammer nor heat rope to form these different parts
>>nor the connect/pin the separate parts together as connection run of rope skips this step too.
In real time the loading itself forges rope from the forming stage to forged against loading stage.
>>unloading as bringing metal parts back to melt into foundry to reform/re-deploy as rope likewise lays in melted puddle
The loaded rigid form of rope, is subject to the same inline and tension rules of metal and wood in normal states
>>but not compression nor cross axis rules of rigids, as a flexible rope can't resist alone like rigids wood or metal.
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As to electrical schematic symbols as logistics overview:
i use/visualize friction as electrical resistor,
turns on bollard etc. as variable resistor,
purposeful weak link as mechanical fuse
pulley system as transformer,
Prussik grab to other rope as inductor coil,
rope as wire,
pull handle as input antennae to catch force ,
elasticity as capacitance,
cam or tended prusik as 1 way diode (while 1way cam or prussik set can polarize capacitance value) etc.
Volts needed against load x amperage time against load = watts of effort used
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To then describe weight as a positive charge called to Earth as negative ground
>>If don't want to let weight fall to ground + to -
>>must provide alternate path to ground such as weight floating on rope, attached to overhead limb
>>and tree provides grounding path and satiates positive charge of weight
Anything interrupts or removes the alternate path(s) to ground, + charge of weight falls to - charge of ground faithfully
« Last Edit: April 12, 2020, 03:02:05 PM by KC »
Rope-n-Saw Life
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agent_smith

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Hello NeopsycheMD,

Have a look at the attached image.
Its my view on a class of 'knots' known as hitches.

In my view, a hitch requires a host to form around.
If that host is removed, the hitch loses structural integrity.
Hitches can be further categorized into the following sub-classes:
[ ] slide and grip progression hitch
[ ] noose hitch
[ ] binder hitch
[ ] load control hitch

Within the subclass 'slide and grip progression hitch', there are a vast number of varieties and applications.
However, they all can generally be regarded as; symmetric, asymmetric, dual leg, and single leg.

Arborists like to generally imagine they exclusively own and control this subclass of hitch  ;D

KC

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Slippery Slope, we paint;
if trying to understand knot functions, forces by given names tho.
At best allows fair communication for us.
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Bowline Knot stand alone, no force
Bowline used as a Hitching(termination to non-rope), gives expected force pattern/flow
>>vs. IF Bowline was (errantly) to stop swell from inside (Binding) the force flow changes
>>as has a different force input, from different direction(s)
>>and is better with the 'anti-Bowline'/CowBoy Bowline
Still not proper best, but we have turned the trapping/Nip mechanism to fit direction of travel for forces thru the rope pipeline
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In friction hitch/'slide and grip progression hitch' the ridden /host mount of the rope the hitch grabs
>>is more of a rail/spar that hitch rides than a rope part in this examination i think

Rope-n-Saw Life
"Nature, to be commanded, must be obeyed" -Sir Francis Bacon
We now return you to the safety of normal thinking peoples.
~ Please excuse the interruption; thanx -the mgmt.~

agent_smith

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Re: Newbie doubt - What class do binding knots and the half knot belong to?
« Reply #10 on: April 14, 2020, 02:47:51 PM »
per KC:
Quote
Slippery Slope, we paint;
A slippery slope for whom?
Do you mean the information provided to the original poster (NeopsycheMD) will lead him down a slippery slope?

Quote
Bowline Knot stand alone, no force
Bowline used as a Hitching(termination to non-rope), gives expected force pattern/flow
>>vs. IF Bowline was (errantly) to stop swell from inside (Binding) the force flow changes
>>as has a different force input, from different direction(s)
>>and is better with the 'anti-Bowline'/CowBoy Bowline
Still not proper best, but we have turned the trapping/Nip mechanism to fit direction of travel for forces thru the rope pipeline
I'm trying to understand how this information answers the OP's question?
What is a knot? What is a hitch?
The term 'knot' is a general catch-all for all types of knot structures.
A hitch is getting more specific - drilling down to a particular type of knot structure.
It is possible to conceptualize a hitch as a type of knot that requires a host.

Quote
In friction hitch/'slide and grip progression hitch' the ridden /host mount of the rope the hitch grabs
>>is more of a rail/spar that hitch rides than a rope part in this examination i think
Interesting but, not sure if this is helpful to the OP?
Be that as it may, a slide and grip progression hitch requires a host.
There are several sub-classes of hitches... but they all require a host.
Load control hitches flow around their host (eg #206 Crossing hitch).

KC

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Re: Newbie doubt - What class do binding knots and the half knot belong to?
« Reply #11 on: April 15, 2020, 12:03:02 AM »
Slippery Slope, we paint;
if trying to understand knot functions, forces by given names tho.
At best allows fair communication for us.
.
I try to present again my view that to understand knot forces, see that they load by  Hitching, Binding or Bending usage, irrespective of name.   A Bag (Binding) Knot is different  force loading from it's even around radial input from inside knot that rope stands against, with even loading arcs vs. as a Hitching of linear input from outside into knot to degrade thru arcs.  As a cost of linear to radial conversion not seen in same structure in Binding usage, and handling different force as input.  As same in usually linear input Bowline example  used to Bind, opposite type example to same point.
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As far as friction hitch info, was trying to show further my take on naming and logic of friction as hitch not bend even tho rope to rope transfer.  This is a hair line division, once sorted gives more definition to rest, and no danglers.  End to End friction hitches smashed together more to Bending, but less so spaced hitches I think.
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To me all working knots require a host.
Bowline is a Knot as standalone structure unused and keeps form w/o host mount.
But, this gives no description to force flow, as there is none
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All in all, I think fair to say i see things differently, but not wrong,
With much thought, logical framework,
find it appropriate to show the tangible fabric of relationships of what I see as supporting explanation.
Especially so mathematically and logically based
as tested each part of theories in cross comparative to others in rope for decades.
And many times cross comparisons to verify same force logic in rigids
And even in waveforms of electricity, sound, light etc.
Looking for consistent over riding principles that rope is but small part of.
I know I can't take it with me so try to leave behind, as even simple coral polyps do.
Rope-n-Saw Life
"Nature, to be commanded, must be obeyed" -Sir Francis Bacon
We now return you to the safety of normal thinking peoples.
~ Please excuse the interruption; thanx -the mgmt.~