Components of the square knot - what is the second throw called?

[NeopsycheMD]

Hi guys! I'm a new member here. A general surgeon by profession, falling in love with knots lately. I have a rather silly doubt. The first knot of a square (reef) knot is a half knot. But what do you call the next knot on top of it? I hear most people refer to that as a half knot as well. But technically, the second knot is not a hitch, right? There's nothing inside is loop. (Please correct me if I'm wrong) So shouldn't that be called an overhand knot or something? Or should it not be called an overhand knot because it involves both the standing and working parts? I'm confused. (Kindly excuse my naivety.) Thank you in advance!

[roo]

Hi guys! I'm a new member here. A general surgeon by profession, falling in love with knots lately. I have a rather silly doubt. The first knot of a square (reef) knot is a half knot. But what do you call the next knot on top of it? I hear most people refer to that as a half knot as well. But technically, the second knot is not a hitch, right? There's nothing inside is loop. (Please correct me if I'm wrong) So shouldn't that be called an overhand knot or something? Or should it not be called an overhand knot because it involves both the standing and working parts? I'm confused. (Kindly excuse my naivety.) Thank you in advance!

I tend to just call this basic form a simple tuck.  Ashley does call it a half knot in ABOK #47, so I suppose you could refer to the second form as an opposite hand version of the half knot.

[NeopsycheMD]

Hi guys! I'm a new member here. A general surgeon by profession, falling in love with knots lately. I have a rather silly doubt. The first knot of a square (reef) knot is a half knot. But what do you call the next knot on top of it? I hear most people refer to that as a half knot as well. But technically, the second knot is not a hitch, right? There's nothing inside is loop. (Please correct me if I'm wrong) So shouldn't that be called an overhand knot or something? Or should it not be called an overhand knot because it involves both the standing and working parts? I'm confused. (Kindly excuse my naivety.) Thank you in advance!

I tend to just call this basic form a simple tuck.  Ashley does call it a half knot in ABOK #47, so I suppose you could refer to the second form as an opposite hand version of the half knot.

Yeah that makes more sense. Thank you so much for the quick reply! (Btw could it be referred to as an overhand knot as well, somehow?)
And another trivial, (but fundamental) doubt of mine - Where under Ashley's 4-fold classification of knots do 'binding knots' fall? Are they 'hitches' technically? So can a square knot used as a binding knot be considered a hitch?

[KC]

Functionally , per work force flow,
I look at this as added keeper  ,
to lock of Half Knot.
Like light hairpin cotter key to more secure fully loaded hitch pin.
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Also gives destabilizing release to pull knot from 'square'.
Granny rotates out of square,
Thief has greatest against lesser (rather than balanced pulls of Square), so pulls out of square more linearly.
Grief combines both architecture faults.
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Square 'family' is great minimalist study to reveal most visibly constant rope forces and pitfalls to carry to rest of lessons.
Use as Binding only so can get lock force by primary force against host.
NOT as Bend where can't Nip to host with primary to host
>>but rather , only allows lock by lesser force after arc on 'off side''
>>where Square as Binding only uses this as keeper of lesser force after primary force powered lock
>>in Bend is now weak powered lock against Primary load force side.
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Visualize Sheet Bend as further refinement of 1 off side leg crossing into primary and giving lock around Bight.
Square to Surgeon as more of a linear Round Turn upgrade path.

[NeopsycheMD]

@KC

Thank you so much!!

[Watermac]

Just for fun, the really interesting feature of the grief knot is that you can tie it around an object, and then pull on the exposed ends until it is snug, then twist the ends to lock it in, and later, twist them back to loosen up the binding.

[KC]

Stable form is the What Knot#1406
To me this is as like Dbl.Sheet Bend , by locking form either side, one side is not passive bight.
Good except likes to walk out of round/switch tail sides
(this is even a magic trick of 'switching gears' unseen #1407)
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           *Seized in round  #1459*
"The REEVING-LINE BEND,which is pictured by Roding in
1795, is so named because it passes easily through hawse pipes and
fair-leaders. The 2 HALF HITCHES relieve the load on the seizings.
Admiral Alston (Seamanship, London, 1860) says this "is about the best."
Mechanically the knot is the exact duplicate of the WHATNOT and the GRASS KNOT "
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In flat rope/webbing, the different geometry of flat surfaces can give enough friction tails don't swap
>>called Grass Knot #259
>>Grass Bend #1490, holds strong, and unties particularly in wider flat rope/webbing
Personally have used same some in mixed flat/round/chain Bendings, but always best to kick 1 leg up to be sure.

[KC]

Simplest/minimalist 'Square Family' is a very important knot study/lessons to me
>>formally seen as Square-Thief-Granny-Grief
>> i kinda extend to larger family of  Sheet, Surgeon, What, Half, even Awning
As all without typical followups of 'rest of knot carriage'; that usually serves to maintain alignment, stabilize/ballast the primary leading part(s) of knot 'interface' to outside world and host grab in many knots.  Even perhaps hold ground even when front line force parts not best.
In Square Knot, the 2nd Half is the minimal 'rest of carriage' after original Half, but not like other knots..
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i think SParts are a Hitching's force input into knot from outside world (into hitch).
The 1st 180 arc back towards source force input SPart as the primary host attachment AND force reduction thru rope.
>>Nip secures then, to keep Hook rigidly in place to do job.
This primary 1st non-arc of SPart input and 1st arc before most force reductions as the Primary Hook.
All we have to do is keep this in place, usually w/rest of 'knot carriage' that has less force and is not  front line engaged
>>rest of 'knot carriage' to me serves to maintain the hook placement/alignment of the frontline/primary hook of SPart and 1st arc
>>as well as further force reductions preceding final Nipping to secure
Backup Stopper knots can offer more security sometimes keeps rest of carriage straight
>>but sometimes can ram carriage rear to distort somewhat
Stopper configs that are seized to SPart(s) or perhaps even friction hitches to SPart (w/o deforming SPart)
>>can offer rear stabilization, straight feed ballast to rest of knot carriage, w/o risk of rear ramming deformation to knot carriage.
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Square Knot to me is as a 'closed' Half Knot, Ashley even refers to the 'closing' half as a 2nd Half Knot
>>implying perhaps that the 2 Halfs make the (1st) whole knot (Square) to start knot lessons?
i think Square and it's lessons are a basic knot to be sure
>>errant in Bend/Granny actually more stable there; but mechanix should be studied in Square/Thief/Granny/Grief as BEND
>>then why doesn't work, and then add host mount, change direction of pull etc. to show proper Square/Reef.
Doesn't work, be cause lose the base Half Knot that nips most loading, and depends on lesser secondary keeper of 'second Half Knot'
>>that is not empowered in the force line, so is now lesser offline trying to manage greater inline force
>>Square loses it's flip less loaded part to release
>>as now is the primary hold, from what was a throw in, lesser keeper as a Square Knot.
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Knots of minimal structure/no 'extended knot carriage' beyond the main interfacing parts and Nip, as very simplest constructs
>>can be extra tricky when force seizing Nip, is powered by matching forces
>>rather than major force Nipping a lesser/reduced force in power AND 'rigid footprint' of greater sandwiching lesser against firm surface as most knots.
>>Added stoppers or 'knot carriage' game changer tho
i characterize a single Turn as a 180arc frictionalized slip, takes 2nd, 3rd etc. 180arc(s) for grip
>>in the normal right angle arc of rope back to self, but even more slip in 'lengthwise' 180arc of Half Knot, long splice etc.
>>showing Half Knot, even as base for Square not to have any realistic force reduction at Nip to Host of the sandwiched rope part.
This is where is say that we have trickier matching holding matching forces, instead of greater 'stomping' lesser to secure

[KC]

Square/Reef as Bend err of direction of pull change loses the main force lock of the initial Half Knot;
that Square/Reef Binding Knot relies on.  Also loses the host mount to stabilize frictions around and then Nip.
The ~90degree change in direction immensely changes things, as like in all other linear force mechanix;
as the Ancients tried to show/giftwrap in the 0-90degree sweep of sine and cosine.
Euclid's 'Elements' is millenniums old text, that is still said to be the most 2nd most published ever of (thereby impacting) civilization.
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90degree direction change, changes mechanix usually more than a total reverse of direction.
>>cosine / sine remain same in reverse direction on same axis, 180arc turn back to same axis of same sine/cosine
>>but cosine/sine swap in this 90degree change, reversing not direction, but functions in many ways as the numbers so change.
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Applied to why is Square/Reef only to be used in Binding, not Bending that the eye also sees as fare.
>>eye needs re-trained to see really what is going on, beyond it's own obscurities(human design flaw) , to see more clearly.
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The 90 degree change of direction of the initiating, input linear force,
changes the main lock of Half Knot to a slip form(sans Half Knot).
Then even in secondary layer, of now only Half Knot in the system
>>the reduced lock force is in the same linear direction input as Square Bind and primary Half Hitch
>>but lock force is NOT in the same direction as input now is, after the 90degree conversion.
>>lesser effect, but in the dance, and noted as trace-able to more highlighting in other forms
(so note here in barest, most simplistic forms; to track)
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In other lessons to self, of knotting being about the 180arcs of pulls of both ends AND compounding apex of arc all 3 in SAME direction of UNEQUAL forces
vs. lesser non-arc extensions of OPPOSING directions of EQUAL force
>>note here in Binding or errant Bending , the most powerful compounding apex of arc is not used except to stiffen region
>>Then as errant Bending the primary, initiating force and its direction are not used to lock/Nip
>>only tries to Nip after primary arc force reduction; rendering maybe baby, not rock solid service.
>>After forgoing using best force, direction and arc compounding utilities to control.
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Sine/Cosine etc. is code-key to cryptic forces and displacements;
to be able to read what is happening constantly all around.
Sine and Cosine even show in electric, water, light, vibration etc. wave forms as exactly same math, as they perpetuate thru all; engulfing different things we know as the larger sea that rope work, mechanics etc. dwell in and are subject to.
Written down by those that dealt with them more simply and rawly, not so buffered softly and spaced from as today
>>and with fewer distractions!
1 on 1 with simplest of tools/rope in climbing with own carcass supported from death by the rope, knots in your face;
can bring some of that intense rawness back i think, but only for short time in our world as now.

[KC]

In these simplest of functional structures, and small variances that cripple functionality;
are where logically can see the most necessary mechanix w/o so much 'clutter' of other parts.
These 'other parts' of other knots, will repeat same functions in leveraged chains of compounded forces,
>>mostly serving to grip better or as to decrease tension forces AND rigidity of a rope part to be nipped better etc.
>>to leverage into the same mechanix shown in these simpler forms of Square, Sheet, Surgeon etc.
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Here show again errant Square/Reef used as Bending,
>>where can't use primary force to nip primary force
>>nor use the eventual later force that nips, in the same initial force direction as pulls into the nips,
As can use both principles in proper use of Square in Binding
>>before 90degree change of input pull
>>so in Binding can use the primary input force and it's direction to nip to host mount
(both factors lost in Bend usage, and each 'hook' becomes the other's 'host mount')
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To re-engage the primary force as lock in Bending
Typically cross 1 leg from the 'off side' to trap between the 2 primary pulls into knot
or
run a series of arcs like a short splice to make a Surgeon's Knot type structure
>>Both cases re-engage the primary force input to lock/secure/nip
>>that is lost as take Square from Binding to Bending.