Author Topic: Attempt to label and recreate bowline variations without pics. New knot too?  (Read 4469 times)

KnotLikely

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*************please see reply #8 for my (currently) finished version***************


-----An attempt to classify and label all stable and secure bowline variations, finishes and locks-----

-----will someone please tell me how to escape the  8) back into ( 8 )s, please?-----

Please help me note what you find to be stable, inherently secure or TIB.  Please note any mistakes (this is only 4 days, edited and re-edited, often at 3am)   Please add your own knots or knots that I have missed (still a work in progress on my end).  Please comment on my system and discuss changes that could lead to its viability as a replacement for the necessity of perfectly opened, dressed, uncrossed, front and back pictures.

I'm personally interested only in climbing harness tie-in relevant bowlines, at this time.  Part of this is my fascination with the knot.  Part of this is me having realized how little information I could find on the practically infinite structures and variations and finishes that are possible.  Part of this is that I'm sick of tying figure 8 follow throughs and even more sick of attempting to untie them after any fall.  This is my attempt at making sense and categorizing the pictures that I have found in this forum.  This is my attempt to find the perfect tie-in knot.

All of my discussion of bowlines will begin with Spart in the left hand with the working end coming toward me.  Spart shall be threaded from bottom to top through both loops of a standard climbing harness and the working end will begin all knots to the right side of the Spart.  My right hand will twist to create the nipping loops in the Spart.  A "top twist" (Z chirality)(right handed loop)(right hand thumb moving up)(loop formed on the right side of Spart) will create a loop where the Spart goes out the bottom and the working end, going into the harness, will come out the top.  A "bottom twist" (right hand thumb moving down) will create a loop where the Spart goes away from me on the bottom side of the loop.  When multiple nipping loops are created, they will be created and named from closest to me to farthest from me.  All working ends shall begin by going through the bottom of the nipping loop, around the Spart, and returning through the nipping loop from the top (notwithstanding Lee's Link "Bowline").

Given these rules that I have set for myself (to ease discussion with minimal pictures) and (created for consistency in tying bowlines in life saving applications), no bowline can be created from beginning with a single bottom twist.  (I'll save that twist for learning to fly by way of incorrectly tied double dragon.  I joke.)

For discussion of the nipping loops after initial creation, in cases where multiple nipping loops were created, the first nipping loop shall be the loop that cinches first (closest to running Spart).  **This may be the reverse of the order given in the creation of the nipping loops.**  The specific knot being discussed should already be defined.  Calling the loop that grabs first and the hardest the "first" just seems to make sense to me, as does creating them closest to me first and moving away.  After 5 days of tying bowlines, now being able to tie my knot with my eyes closed 100x perfectly, I won't be able to change this without finding a way to reset my brain.

Edit: apparently I also called the "first nipping loop" the "primary" loop.

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1. Nipping Loops:
-------------------------------------------------------------

The variations that I have found, so far, starting from the beginning of tying the knot (working end fed through harness) are:

(1)-Simple bowline - top twist
(2)-Double bowline - top twist, top twist placed under
(3)-Water bowline - top twist, top twist placed on top (clove hitch)
(4)-"Locking" Spart - top twist, bottom twist placed under
(5)-"Locking" Ongoing - bottom twist, top twist placed under
(6)-(Water bowline left handed?) - bottom twist, bottom twist placed under
(7)-Girth hitch bowline 1 - top twist, bottom twist folded up (main nipping loop from Spart is nearest the collar/top/Spart)
(8)-Girth hitch bowline 2 - bottom twist, top twist folded down (main nipping loop is on the bottom.  I prefer this as it grabs the tail more securely)
(9)-unnamed - double top twist, top twist placed on top. (adds a girth hitch like switchback)
(10)-unnamed bight 1 - Top twist, draw bight through from Spart

All other variations of nipping loops (that I have found) devolve into topologically similar knots or devolve into a failed knot.  (Bottom twist, top twist placed on top, tied into a regular bowline devolves into a top twist cowboy bowline, for instance.)

Note: 7 and 8 may be turned in either direction, changing which loop has the first nipping loop on the bottom.  The Mirrored Girth Hitch Bowline, for instance, turns the loops opposite of how I had turned them until I found that knot.  I was unable to recreate the knot until I understood this.  Girth hitch bowlines can have the working end fed from either the bottom or the top when creating the collar or Lee's Link.  I believe this gives them an extra layer of safety concerning tying into a life saving harness.  It is simply one less step to be able to mess up.

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2. Working end individual moves:
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There are five possible zones around the outside of the knot nub.  Left side(ongoing)(V), between the eye-legs(W), right side(returning)(X), inside collar left of Spart(Y), inside collar right of Spart(Z)

(a) - Up through nipping loop
(b) - Down through nipping loop
(c) - Behind Spart from right to left
(d) - Behind Spart from left to right
(g) - Around back of ongoing eye-leg (up V)
(h) - Around front of ongoing eye-leg (down V)
(i) - Up between eye-legs (up W)
(j) - Down between eye-legs (down W)
(k) - Around back of returning eye-leg (up X)
(l) - Around front of returning eye-leg (down X)
(m) - Up through collar left of Spart (up Y)
(n) - Up through collar right of Spart (up Z)
(o) - Down through collar left of Spart (down Y)
(p) - Down through the collar right of Spart (down Z)
(q) - Follow Spart through all loops/collar
(r) - draw across face of nipping loop from V-X or X-V
(s) - up through only primary nipping loop
(t) - up through only secondary nipping loop
(u) - down through only primary nipping loop
(v) - down through only secondary nipping loop

Note: please let me know if you can find any more first principle working end moves that I have missed.  Some are currently unused, mostly because I REALLY need sleep and my fingers are getting sore.  In my previous iteration of this document, I had parts 2. and 3. switched, with the current 2. being extended finishes made of multiple moves and the current 3. being the basic knots.  This lead to an easier, but limited, naming system.  EBDB could be named 2Ae instead of 2acbgb, but I actually ran out of lower case letters because of all the variations.  Listing the individual moves leads to more complicated knot descriptors, but at least the descriptors do not grow impossibly high in number.  I'm hoping this method is still legible.

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3. Knots, variations (and various late night delirious notes):
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All knots begin with harness feed.  All knots are PET.  I don't care about TIB for my purposes, but I would like to make note for the community and possibly my future tying endeavors.  I prefer Panic Clip Safe to the working end running with the Spart.  If these knots are your favorites, please double check my work!

-Bowline-                             1acb
-Cowboy bowline-               1adb
-Lee's Link 1-                      1hacb
-Lee's Link 2-                      1hadb
-EBDB-                                 2acbgb
-EBSB-                                 1acbgbkjq
-Monkey butterfly-               2adbgrlabn (optional, draw collar down and back, then (b) through bottom of nipping loops for full monkey effect)(my absurd creation, I believe)
-Scott's lock-                        1acbibn
-Monsoon bowline-              3acbivj
-Mirrored Girth Hitch-           8acbha(m)or(n) (m or n.  no idea.  I'm drunk) (girth hitch flipped bottom up, not top down, so that switchback faces you on the left side instead of facing away)
-My tie-in-                            8adbgb (final turn of working end through nipping loops wraps the switchback of the girth hitch.  It doesn't matter which way it is turned. If it is on the right, use a cowboy bowline to leave the working end near the switchback.  If it is on the left, use a normal bowline.)
-Edward's Bowline-             (10)acbca (or it's acbda.  I have no idea.  I think it doesn't matter.  double collars is the finish.)
-DCDB-                                2acb(ca on the reverse side)or(da on the reverse side) (I truly have no idea which is which.  It doesn't seem to matter once dressed.)

My tie-in is probably named as EBGHB2?

Monkey butterfly bowline is absurd.  I made it because I love symmetry and it's funny.  If you absolutely hate stopper knots and want to attempt to pull a train with another train, this is the knot for you.

DCDB - Double Collar Double Bowline - (2acbca)  The collars may intertwine or not.  If collars are intertwined, Spart shall bind between them when heavily loaded.  Nipping loops may be spread at (W) to release bind.  Probably still as bindable as a fig. 8 followthrough.  If collars are not intertwined, Spart may be released by bending outside collar, feeding Spart, bending inner collar and feeding Spart.  This releases bound nipping loops.  A beautiful and simple locking finish!

EBDB variations:

-2acbgb does not lock as firmly as 2adbgb.  With 2adbgb, the tail is more firmly secured and the locking loop around the back seems to cinch the nub slightly better.

-4(acb)or(adb)gb can lock the Spart to first nipping loop fairly hard.  Need to test knot release after fall.

-5(acb)or(adb)gb releases easily as Spart to nipping loops is only bound by the final turn of the tail into the nipping loops.

! -3acbgb the tail returning between the eye loops(W) allows the binding of the tail into the nipping loops to slightly secure the two nipping loops together and aids in securing the final tail nip.  This can be modified even further by not going behind the ongoing eye-leg, and instead simply coming up the bottom front of the nub between the two eye-legs before performing (ib) in place of (gb).  This can be secured Even further by returning the final tail to the left of itself, separating it from both eye-legs and maintaining more pressure on the tail.

-3adbgb has the first nipping loop on the top instead of the bottom and does not secure tail as well.  Tail coming from the far side of the knot for the final bind does not aid the second nipping loop in binding the tail.  Nipping loops separate.

-6acbgb is bombproof, especially after a fall.  It binds as hard as a figure 8 followthrough.  Spart to first nipping loop is fully secured by the pinching of the two nipping loops and is stable in that position.

-6adbgb as with 3adb, the tail ending outside the eye-legs(X) prevents the locking together of the nipping loops when (g) is made.  Unlike 3adb, the first nipping loop is on the bottom so this helps prevent binding while allowing the tail to remain secure.

-7acbgb cinches the switchback of the clove hitch very nicely.  Except for 7acbgb, (7)and(8)(acb)and(adb)ib feel more secure than (7)and(8)(acb)and(adb)gb variants.  All eight break apart cleanly due to the clove hitch and being able to be released at both collar and nipping loop.

-It should also be noted that from (adb), there are two ways for the tail to achieve (gb).  It can run in front of or behind the returning eye-leg (as it goes through the nipping loops to form the collar).  For separation of the returning eye-leg and the tail, having the tail perform (ib) from (W) seems to be preferable in most knots (sometimes more compact).

-In the (gb) locking method, the final feed of the tail through the nipping loops can self separate the tail from the returning leg.  This topology can not transform into any other within the nipping loop.  If a cinch knot is going to be employed, this ensures that even if the knot goes totally loose, the returning leg and the tail are unable to feed through together past the abutted dividing line.  The most secure End Bound Water Bowline is (3acb) with an (ib) finish.  The final wrap of the tail, proceeding over the front face of the nub and continuing down the front of the two nipping loops binds the two nipping loops together at the point where they are usually able to diverge.  The tail is able to come out the left side of itself, separating the final tail piece from both the ongoing eye-leg and the returning eye-leg.  The tail can be cinched with a half fisherman to either eye-leg, preventing the knot from unraveling at all, even when fully loosened.  This probably doesn't matter as I believe the knot is both stable and secure, already, in any final (ib) form through the nipping loops.

-(8adbib) with the tail separated from the returning eye-leg seems to be an incredible structure.  The collar remains easily broken after heavy loading.  The vertical wrap of the girth hitch remains easily broken after heavy loading, unlike the (gb) lock which works to bind it.  The tail lock lightly binds the ongoing eye-leg, preventing loosening of the knot.  A cinch knot can be added to either eye-leg and is locked in place, with no movement allowed, by a contacting separating line.  It binds the nipping loops together slightly better than (8adbgb) but sacrifices some of the binding of the ongoing eye-leg, allowing the secondary nipping loop to loosen more than (8adbgb), but also allowing easier disassembly after multiple falls.

-I believe Harry Butlers Yosemite Bowline to be unstable.  I'm attempting to find or recreate the picture that I took after cyclical loading. (I think it was HBYB. Can't be positive, yet.  4am problems.)

-There are 4 possible zones inside the nipping loop, with two modifiers.  The working end, passing through the nipping loop may relate to other lines by in front, behind, left, right, over, under.  These definitions will need some work and vary slightly depending on the lines running through the nipping loop, but all stable and secure knots (for climbing purposes) should be able to work well in any position.  A knot that requires passing through the nipping loop at a specific position to be stable or secure is not suited to situations where lives are at risk.  Nipping loop feed placements will be ignored for now.

-Scott's weave-         WHY?

PET - post eye tiable (does not require a knot to be tied before entering harness loops)
TIB - tiable in the bight (not relevant to initial, single pitch tie-in)
PCS - panic clip safe (Spart runs cleanly and alone out the top of the nub)

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Non-Bowlines:
-------------------------------------------------------------

-Double Dragon-         Bottom Twist, (acajaaaaaahhhhh!)  I need another base move descriptor.

Did I make a new knot?!  A beautiful knot?  Is it TIB?  I have no idea how to check that.  It isn't a bowline.  It is either not stable, not secure, or both.  Girth hitch strangle.  Make a girth hitch on Spart(7)or(8), wrap 3 strangle wraps around girth hitch bend.  There are 3 placements for strangle loops.  Needs investigation.  One strangle seems on par with a single bowline in stability, maybe better.  Is not secure without finding a lock to add.

« Last Edit: March 11, 2020, 05:24:23 AM by KnotLikely »

Keystoner

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I personally see no practicality to this convoluted alphabetized naming/tying system. It's a solution in search of a problem.

KnotLikely

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I personally see no practicality to this convoluted alphabetized naming/tying system. It's a solution in search of a problem.

Without this system or 40 pictures, how would you propose we discuss the different strengths and weaknesses of the three ways to perform the "EB" step of the EBDB upon the Z under Z nipping loops, the S under Z nipping loops and cowboy version of each.

How can we figure out if the (4) and (5) variants of the EBDB are more secure EB in the cowboy form with the lock around the returning leg side or in the original form with (gb) or (ig)?

4 days ago, I couldn't tie a bowline.  2 days ago, I had every bowline I could find a picture of translated into a pattern that could be written down.  Over 3 hours, I memorized every bowline I had seen because of being able to write down a pattern and get perfect repeats.  Now, I see a ton of variations that offer minor changes that have seemingly never been mentioned, before.

It is the little things, like (ki) or (li) to ensure that someone who has never tied your knot, before, gets the tail of the 1adb onto the correct side of the returning leg before making a novel move as with (kirVX).

Reading this and following a simple pattern of moves should allow you to recreate my tie in knot and discuss the downside of its variation, without a single picture.

Keystoner

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without a single picture.

That's the goal here? Why? I suppose you'd like to eliminate video as well so the only option is yours?

Bottom Twist, (acajaaaaaahhhhh!)
You're kidding, right? Dude, you ran out of letters.  ::)

KnotLikely

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Reading through the posts in this forum, I constantly see people asking for clarification of a knot, even after pictures.  I see people saying they aren't sure if they recreated the knot correctly, even after pictures.

The goal is to be able to easily reproduce Lee's Link Bowline with 1hacb instead of the 15 minutes it took me to work through the pictures and figure out exactly what was done, and to be sure that it was right, attempting to match what I see on the back side with what I saw on the front.  Saying 1hacb, there is no question of the moves necessary to tie it right, the very first time.  Having rules for beginning a bowline tie-in laid out, ensure that everyone is creating the same knot with no questions.  That is the goal.  Sometimes pictures are unclear, and I'm sure not making a video for each of 20 different variations of the EB()B with their standard and cowboy versions.

KnotLikely

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Here is another goal.  Add in an explanation of Spart, ongoing eye-leg and returning eye-leg, print this out and have my wife, who has never before tied a knot, be able to make an end bound cowboy left hand water bowline.

Why?  Because I needed this when I started tying knots a few days ago.

I think this started when I realized that Lee's Link was simply performing an "end bound" move before forming the collar on a simple bowline.  That is a far easier thing to say (and unmistakable when properly defined) than attempting to divine that concept from a picture.

Someone being able to say just do an (ah) before making a standard (acb), just like you do an (h) after you do a (2acb) would have saved me a bit of a headache.

Found a mistake to fix: 1ahacb is Lee's Link, not 1hacb
« Last Edit: February 29, 2020, 07:15:53 PM by KnotLikely »

agent_smith

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Hello KnotLikely,

I admire your enthusiasm and we need more people trying to push the envelope out further - to expand our collective knowledge about knots.

I need to point out some things for you:

1. You should obtain a copy of Harry Asher's book; "The Alternative Knot Book".
On page 55, he introduces his 'new' system of knot tying notation.
He starts by applying the system to the #1425A Riggers bend.

2. I would point out that Dan Lehman and others from the IGKT have also tried to devise a notation system for tying knots.
I don't know the link for the thread topic and I don't know what its current status is...other than to say that nobody has expanded on that system or posted any new information for quite some time. Maybe I can suggest that it died a slow death...?

3. Clifford Ashley didn't seem to have a notional concept of loop chirality... but in fairness to him, it was circa 1944 so the state-of-the-art was ahead of its time but in 2020, we have advanced our collective understanding considerably, and the need for stricter (and clearer) definitions has become apparent... For instance, Ashley illustrates all of his 'Bowlines' with Z chirality nipping loop. S chirality 'Bowlines' are simply ignored?

4. yChan has made a huge effort to catalogue an encyclopedic volume of 'end-to-end joining knots' - but, I note with interest that nobody is responding or attempting to advance his work. It seems to exist within its own 'bubble' and nobody has advanced upon it.

...

And now you are also attempting to introduce a 'new' notation system.
Is your system going to be more successful that those who went before you?

For many years, Dan Lehman has advised that "words can work" - and I have no wish to argue against his views or his vision.
There are those who argue strongly for clear photos/illustrations.

I personally sit on the photography side of the fence.

The English language is complex - and words conjure up images in the human brain - and interpretations can vary from one person to the next.

...

Some quick feedback:
Quote
A "top twist" (Z chirality)(right handed loop)(right hand thumb moving up)(loop formed on the right side of Spart) will create a loop where the Spart goes out the bottom and the working end, going into the harness, will come out the top.
Here you stumble..
Forget about the notion of a 'top twist' - its irrelevant.
There is no 'top', or 'bottom'.
A loop with Z chirality remains Z regardless of its orientation.
For example, a right hand glove is always a right hand glove no matter which way you orient it.

Quote
When multiple nipping loops are created, they will be created and named from closest to me to farthest from me.  All working ends shall begin by going through the bottom of the nipping loop, around the Spart, and returning through the nipping loop from the top (notwithstanding Lee's Link "Bowline").
This can only have meaning to you personally.
The concept of 'closest to me' and 'farthest from me' is arbitrary - but in your case, your body is the reference frame. You are attempting to provide a reference frame - from which your notation is meaningful.

In Lees link Bowline, the 'collar' performs a U turn at the crossing point of the loop (and note that loop could in fact be S or Z chirality - both being equally valid).
In a simple #1010 Bowline, the collar performs a U turn around the SPart (standing part).
In both cases, the collar actually goes around the SPart...a condition of all 'Bowlines'.
Note that in 'anti-Bowlines', the collar performs a U turn around the ongoing eye leg.

All 'anti-Bowlines' have a nipping loop - which can be S or Z chirality.
And all 'Bowlines' (virtual or primary) have a nipping loop. The nipping loop is a fundamental component of all 'Bowlines'.
I believe that most 'Bowlines' will have an 'anti' version - although I have not tested this theory (so its just a theory).
I can confirm that there is an 'anti' version of the following 'Bowlines'... #1010, EBSB, Yosemite Bowline, #1074, Scotts locked Bowline, and #1080.

I devised the term 'virtual Bowline' in attempt to describe those eye knots which fulfill all of the requirement for the title of 'Bowline' but, fall short on a structural technicality.
Primary 'Bowlines' all have a single or double helical nipping loop that it 'TIB' and loaded at both ends.
'Bowlines' based on a #206 Crossing hitch or a #559 Marlinspike hitch are 'virtual Bowlines' - because their nipping structure isn't based on a helical loop.
« Last Edit: March 01, 2020, 03:53:01 AM by agent_smith »

KnotLikely

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<Snip>
In Lees link Bowline, the 'collar' performs a U turn at the crossing point of the loop (and note that loop could in fact be S or Z chirality - both being equally valid).
In a simple #1010 Bowline, the collar performs a U turn around the SPart (standing part).
In both cases, the collar actually goes around the SPart...a condition of all 'Bowlines'.
<Snip>

That's what I'm looking for!  Editing, now, to address some of these issues.  Thanks!

Do non-helical nipping loops inherently prevent a knot from being TIB or is that dependent upon the rest of the knot?  (note, I am only currently concerned with finding the merits and failings of possible harness tie-in knots, hence all references being able to be me.  It is the only relevant reference.)

I read, I believe you or Dan, telling someone that recently the naming of the Spart has been limited to only belong to parts of the line that are fully loaded (Spart and first nipping loop. (and possibly the (ag) loop in Lee's link?)

I would argue that, as we already have the name "nipping loop" or "primary nipping loop," if there are two, extending the name Spart to include that already named structure would serve no purpose but to offer more confusion.  Keeping them separated allows no confusion about what a turn around the Spart is referring to.

"All working ends shall **begin** by going through the bottom of the nipping loop, around the Spart,"

It was the first bowline that I had come across that did not begin in the manner that I had described.

This writing began as a way for me to remember the hundreds of knots that I was tying, but also as a step by step process laid out, as I taught it to myself (5 days ago).  I originally intended this to begin with 1. a clear label of all things common to every bowline, 2. instructions on how to consistently make them (of which Lee's Link was the first to violate, hence the notation, there), 3. a definition of all loops, all moves and then all functional knots.  I have begun paring it down to not include anything but the knot notation and required concepts, already.  Back to the editing, I go.
« Last Edit: March 01, 2020, 06:01:04 AM by KnotLikely »

KnotLikely

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Will someone PLEASE tell me how to revert the  8) to proper ( 8 )s?

Fixed a few mistakes.  Edited out some nonsense and descriptions for non tyers.  Some perspective must exist unless you can figure out language that somehow excludes it.  The knot forms in front of me.  "The ongoing leg" or (V) are used in place of "left" as much as possible.

agent_smith, what do you think of the EBGHB+Y?  I'm fairly sure it is impossible to seize that knot through loading.  Is it TIB?  (I can hold the tail tight to the Spart and attempt to untie it to figure that out, correct?)



-----A system of documenting all functional bowlines-----

This is also my attempt to find the perfect tie-in knot.

All of my discussion of bowlines will begin with Spart in the left hand with the working end threaded from bottom to top through both loops of a standard climbing harness and the working end laying to the right of the Spart.  When multiple nipping loops are created, they will be created and named beginning from the harness and working away down the Spart.



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1. Nipping Loops:
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The variations that I have found, so far, starting from the beginning of tying the knot (working end fed through harness) are:

(1)-Simple bowline - Z
(2)-Double bowline - Z, Z placed under
(3)-Water bowline - Z, Z placed on top (clove hitch)
(4)-"Locking" Spart - Z, S placed under
(5)-"Locking" Ongoing - S, Z placed under
(6)-(Water bowline left handed?) - S, S placed under
(7)-Girth hitch bowline 1 - Z, S (S is folded up) (switchback outside curve faces away) (primary nipping loop is on top)
(8)-Girth hitch bowline 2 - S, Z (Z is folded down) (switchback outside curve faces away) (primary nipping loop is on bottom)
(9)-unnamed - double Z, Z placed on top. (adds a girth hitch like switchback)
(10)-unnamed bight 1 - Z, draw bight through from Spart
(11)-Girth hitch bowline 3 - Z, S (Z is folded up) (switchback outside curve faces you) (primary nipping loop is on bottom)
(12)-Girth hitch bowline 4 - S, Z (S is folded down) (switchback outside curve faces you) (primary nipping loop is on top)

All other variations of nipping loops (that I have found) devolve into topologically similar knots or devolve into a failed knot.  (S, Z placed on top, tied into a regular bowline devolves into a cowboy bowline. S, alone, cannot form a bowline.)

Note: 7 and 8 may be turned in either direction, creating 11 and 12, also switching which has the primary nipping loop on the bottom.  The Mirrored Girth Hitch Bowline, for instance, turns the loops opposite of how I had turned them until I found that knot.  I was unable to recreate the knot until I understood this.  Girth hitch bowlines can have the working end fed from either the top or the bottom.  I believe this gives them an extra layer of safety as it is harder to create a failed knot.

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2. Working end individual moves:
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There are five possible zones around the outside of the knot nub.  Left side(ongoing)(V), between the eye-legs(W), right side(returning)(X), inside collar left of Spart(Y), inside collar right of Spart(Z)

(a) - Up through nipping loop
(b) - Down through nipping loop
(c) - Behind Spart from right to left
(d) - Behind Spart from left to right
(g) - Around back of ongoing eye-leg (up V)
(h) - Around front of ongoing eye-leg (down V)
(i) - Up between eye-legs (up W)
(j) - Down between eye-legs (down W)
(k) - Around back of returning eye-leg (up X)
(l) - Around front of returning eye-leg (down X)
(m) - Up through collar left of Spart (up Y)
(n) - Up through collar right of Spart (up Z)
(o) - Down through collar left of Spart (down Y)
(p) - Down through the collar right of Spart (down Z)
(q) - Follow Spart through all loops/collar
(r) - draw across front face of nub loop from V-X or X-V
(s) - up through only primary nipping loop
(t) - up through only secondary nipping loop
(u) - down through only primary nipping loop
(v) - down through only secondary nipping loop
(w) - under loop formed by move (r)
(x) - over loop formed by move (r)

(xb is equivalent to ib, but wb is not equivalent to jb.  Due to the nature of the moves, w and x are required)
(In almost all cases, h, i and l are very similar when returning immediately to the nipping loops.  They can serve the purpose of properly positioning the last run through the nipping loops.)

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3. Knots and Variations:
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All knots begin with harness feed.  All knots are PET.  I don't care about TIB for my purposes, but I would like to make note for the community and possibly my future tying endeavors.  I prefer Panic Clip Safe to the working end running with the Spart.  If these knots are your favorites, please double check my work!

-Bowline-         1acb
-Cowboy bowline-      1adb
-Lee's Link 1-         1agacb  (I have not revisited all the posted pictures of variations on LL.  I may have these names wrong.)
-Lee's Link 2-         1agadb
-EBDB-            2acbgb
-EBSB-            1acbgbkjq
-Monkey butterfly-      2adbgrlabn (optional, draw collar down and back, then (a) through bottom of nipping loops for full monkey fist effect
-Scott's Lock-         1acbibn
-Scott's Lock non-rolling-   1acbgjkibn (before the lock, go around the back of ongoing, down between legs, then around back of returning)
-Monsoon bowline-      3acbivj
-Mirrored Girth Hitch-      12acbha (girth hitch flipped bottom up, not top down, so that switchback faces you on the left side instead of facing away)
-Edward's Bowline-      (10)acbca (or it's acbda.  I have no idea.  I think it doesn't matter.  double collars is the finish.)
-DCDB-            2acb(ca on the reverse side)or(da on the reverse side) (I truly have no idea which is which.  It doesn't seem to matter once dressed.)
-EB locking spart LL      4agacblb
-EBDLL            2agacblb
-My tie-in, EBGHB-      8acbgb
-EBGHB + Y         8acbgbq

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Various late night, often delirious, notes (feel free to ignore)
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EBLSLL - Spart is bound between nipping loops.  The (lb) mirrors the (ag) link on the right side.  The (l) move forces the tail to the right side of the (ag) link, crossing in front of it.  As the tail side of the collar is crossed over the returning leg, it is bound between both ends of the link and the tail by the final (b) move, further securing the tail.  The nipping loops contain 4 rope diameters.

EBDLL - Beautifully symmetrical.  4 lines inside the nipping loops.  Not easy to untie after loading.


DCDB - Double Collar Double Bowline - (2acbca)  The collars may intertwine or not.  If collars are intertwined, Spart shall bind between them when heavily loaded.  Nipping loops may be spread at (W) to release bind.  Probably still as bindable as a fig. 8 followthrough.  If collars are not intertwined, Spart may be released by bending outside collar, feeding Spart, bending inner collar and feeding Spart.  This releases bound nipping loops.  A beautiful and simple locking finish!


EBDB variations:

-2acbgb does not lock as firmly as 2adbgb.  With 2adbgb, the tail is more firmly secured and the locking loop around the back seems to cinch the nub slightly better.

-4(acb)or(adb)gb can lock the Spart to first nipping loop fairly hard.  Need to test knot release after fall.

-5(acb)or(adb)gb releases easily as Spart to nipping loops is only bound by the final turn of the tail into the nipping loops.

! -3acbgb the tail returning between the eye loops(W) allows the binding of the tail into the nipping loops to slightly secure the two nipping loops together and aids in securing the final tail nip.  This can be modified even further by not going behind the ongoing eye-leg, and instead simply coming up the bottom front of the nub between the two eye-legs before performing (ib) instead of (gb).  This can be secured Even further by returning the final tail to the left of itself, separating it from both eye-legs.

-3adbgb has the first nipping loop on the top instead of the bottom and does not secure tail as well.  Tail coming from the far side of the knot for the final bind does not aid the second nipping loop in binding the tail.  Nipping loops separate.

-6acbgb is bombproof, especially after a fall.  It binds as hard as a figure 8 followthrough.  Spart to first nipping loop is fully secured by the pinching of the two nipping loops and is stable in that position.

-6adbgb as with 3adb, the tail ending outside the eye-legs(X) prevents the locking together of the nipping loops when (g) is made.  Unlike 3adb, the first nipping loop is on the bottom so this helps prevent binding while allowing the tail to remain secure.

-7acbgb cinches the switchback of the clove hitch very nicely.  Except for 7acbgb, (7)and(8)(acb)and(adb)ib feel more secure than (7)and(8)(acb)and(adb)gb variants.  All eight break apart cleanly due to the clove hitch and being able to be released at both collar and nipping loop.

-It should also be noted that from (adb), there are two ways for the tail to achieve (gb).  It can run in front of or behind the returning eye-leg (as it goes through the nipping loops to form the collar).  For separation from the returning eye-leg and the tail, having the tail perform (ib) from (k) seems to be preferable in most knots (sometimes more compact).

-In the (gb) locking method, the final feed of the tail through the nipping loops can separate the tail from the returning leg using another line running through the nipping loops.  This topology can not transform into any other within the nipping loop.  If a cinch knot is going to be employed, this method ensures that even if the knot goes totally loose, the returning leg and the tail are unable to feed through together past the abutted dividing line.  The most secure End Bound Water Bowline is (3acb) with an (ib) finish.  The final wrap of the tail, proceeding over the front face of the nub and continuing down the front of the two nipping loops binds the two nipping loops together at the point where they are usually able to diverge.  The tail is able to come out the left side of itself, separating the final tail piece from both the ongoing eye-leg and the returning eye-leg.  The tail can be cinched with a half fisherman to either eye-leg, preventing the knot from unraveling at all, even when fully loosened.  This probably doesn't matter as I believe the knot is both stable and secure, already, in any final (ib) and possibly (gb) form through the nipping loops.

-(8adbib) with the tail separated from the returning eye-leg seems to be an incredible structure.  The collar remains easily broken after heavy loading.  The switchback of the girth hitch remains easily broken after heavy loading, unlike the (gb) lock which works to bind it.  The tail lock lightly binds the ongoing eye-leg, preventing loosening of the knot.  A cinch knot can be added to either eye-leg and is locked in place, with no movement allowed, by a contacting separating line.  It binds the nipping loops together slightly better than (8adbgb) but sacrifices some of the binding of the ongoing eye-leg, allowing the secondary nipping loop to loosen more than (8adbgb), but also allowing easier disassembly after multiple falls.

-I believe Harry Butlers Yosemite Bowline to be unstable.  I'm attempting to find or recreate the picture that I took after cyclical loading and light shaking. (I think it was HBYB. Can't be positive, yet.  4am problems.)

-There are 4 possible zones inside the nipping loop, with two modifiers.  The working end, passing through the nipping loop may relate to other lines by in front, behind, left, right, over, under.  These definitions will need some work and vary slightly depending on the lines running through the nipping loop, but all stable and secure knots (for climbing purposes) should be able to work well in any position.  A knot that requires passing through the nipping loop at a specific position to be stable or secure is not suited to situations where lives are at risk.  Nipping loop feed placements will be ignored for now.  Lee's link suffers from this problem.


PET - post eye tiable (does not require a knot to be tied before entering harness loops)
TIB - tiable in the bight (not relevant to initial, single pitch tie-in)
PCS - panic clip safe (Spart runs cleanly and alone out the top of the nub)
« Last Edit: March 01, 2020, 06:52:46 AM by KnotLikely »

agent_smith

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KnotLikely,

Again - your enthusiasm and motivation is appreciated.
However, in my view, this notation system and the whole concept you are attempting to evolve is not going to work.

I have tried to point out that your notation system may only have meaning and relevance within your own reference frame. I'm not entirely sure if you understand what a 'reference frame' is?

Your notional concept of 'up', 'down', 'left' and 'right' is fundamentally flawed.

I will post some images later when I am back in front of a desktop (PC) computer (currently using tiny laptop with tiny LCD screen).

Harry Asher also fell foul of this - he tried to introduce a notation system but again - it only has meaning within a very specific reference frame (ie its a conditional notation system).

Quick point: A 'loop' has no 'up/down' or 'left/right' aspect.
All you can say is that a loop is S or Z chirality.
You can rotate it, you can flip it over, but its chirality does not change.

When tying a simple #1010 Bowline (Z chirality):
You can hold the rope in your left hand or your right hand. You can flip it one way or the other. You can rotate it in any number of degrees...

If you really want to develop a valid notation system, I suggest that you begin with a #1010 Bowline (Z) and try to write your notation so it is valid in any reference frame. In other words, the notation system should be valid regardless of which hand I hold the rope in and regardless of which way I rotate or flip it.
Also, a #1010 Bowline can be tied with S chirality - and it is equally valid.
Note that Ashley only appears to consider 'Bowlines' with Z chirality...S chirality Bowlines are either rare or non-existent in his famous book (not withstanding the Spanish Bowline).

...

I also strongly disagree with your comment that Harry Butlers Yosemite Bowline is not secure/stable.
It belongs to a class of eye knots which are inherently secure and suitable for life critical applications.

I would also reiterate that Scott's locked Bowline is brilliantly simple - and its is inherently secure.
I am jealous of Scott in that I wish I had discovered it.
To this day, I still don't know what flash of brilliance or inspiration led him to make such a discovery!

SS369

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I would also reiterate that Scott's locked Bowline is brilliantly simple - and its is inherently secure.
I am jealous of Scott in that I wish I had discovered it.
To this day, I still don't know what flash of brilliance or inspiration led him to make such a discovery!

Thanks Mark.

Please don't be jealous, I believe you would have come up with it too. You've just been too busy with what you do.

The "flash of inspiration/brilliance", lol, came to me as I was relaxing after a hard work day as I lay on the floor to give my back some relief.
I took my BlueWater 2 six foot sample that I like to tie my thoughts on and was contemplating the one main failing of the #1010 bowline - ring load failure. The thread on locking the bowline simply was on my mind.

I figured if I placed the tail through the nipping ring it would inhibit the failure movement and it did. <<<For Knotlikely """-Scott's weave-         WHY?"""
But, I did not like the tail sticking out as it did. So, I continued to rove it upward through the collar to get it out of that position. (I do like tying decorative knots too.  ;)  )

For me, it has proven to be a winner in every regard. Simple to tie, easy enough to inspect personally and for others once familiar, easy to untie and in climbing rope, as secure as I could want. Must be because it is my tie in loop and I have tested it every way this lay-climber can.

Heck, it even stays tied in aircraft cable.
Others may feel more complexity is needed or desired. That is theirs to decide.

To me, part of the Zen of climbing is the anticipation, preparations, the setting up, the knotwork, the actual climbing/abseiling back down and packing out.
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Good day All.

Tying from visual offerings works best for me personally. To learn a way of notating first, memorizing, recalling and then tying is fairly complicated and won't serve me in the field very well.
Seeing a well photographed, exploded knot usually will do the trick. A few photos of the tying sequence can be helpful.
Words can work, but it has to translate well for anyone.

SS

KnotLikely

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agent_smith:

Yes, I understand what a reference frame is.  ???  Shall I simply replace the language "up" with "as directly as possible away from both eye loop legs, on the Spart side of the collar"?  Why do we need to be increasingly verbose when every person tying into a harness will be just as satisfied with themselves as the reference frame as with no reference frame?  Given that the language to understand the tying of the knot becomes so convoluted, I would argue that most people would prefer "up."

I could go ahead and make those changes to the individual moves, but the more precisely I define them, the more long winded it will become.  Will anyone bother to even read through the whole thing if it quadruples in size?  In its current state, I'm guessing that you, having both the list of nipping loops and the list of individual moves visible on your screen, would easily be able to tie an 8acbgb and get it correct, the first time, without pictures.  Have you tried?  And on that note, what do you think of my current tie in?

I would also like to point out that your brain is able to make sense of knot pictures only because you set your own frame of reference every time you describe to yourself what you are seeing.  "Wait, did the working end go in front of that line or behind it?"  "make sure the collar returns through the nipping loop to the left side of lee's link."

-----

Yes, of course the entire knot can be mirrored to S chirality and the ongoing eye-leg will switch sides.  We can reverse every left/right aspect of what I have written and it will be identical to what you see in the mirror.  This is what was nice about having the "right thumb moving up, top twist" language.  A left handed person is able to perform the identical moves, substituting only the instructions "right" and "left" with each other to tie-in with the same knot.  I am not doubling all non-reference-frame language to describe the mirror of every single knot.  That is unnecessary.  If you can tie an 8adbgb, you can tie its mirror.

-----

As for Harry Buttler's, shake the knot until the collar and Spart tail wrap switch places.  (I had to recreate this manually to figure out what had happened when I shook and banged it.)  After that switch, the wrap around the returning eye-leg is able to switch places with its counterpart, as well.  The resulting knot is not secure.  Loose eye legs enable these movements (belay slack and a dyno, for instance).  It shares topology with this non-secure setup, (1acpjnz), that, before completing the collar, goes down through the right side of the collar (p), loops around the returning leg and goes through the eye loop from the front (j), goes back up through the right side of the collar (n) and finally returns through the nipping loop and the loop around the returning eye-leg (z).

I could take some pictures, but you could also switch the places of two loops that are able to switch without crossing, and switch two more loops that are able to switch without crossing.  It shares topology with a knot that is not safe for harness tie-in.

-----

As for Scott's lock, it is the beautiful thing that started this little obsession of mine with bowlines.  At least in the two dynamic climbing rope chunks that I am tying with, the knot tends to loosen up, mostly, I believe, due to the tail making the turn around the single strand of the nipping loop and its general proclivity to stay fairly loose.  Vigorous shaking of the fully dressed and previously loaded knot allows at least a few inches of the tail to pull back through.  An inch is too much to make me feel safe for the next 20 years.  (edit, just took a small and somewhat safe whipper on it at the gym with it dressed barely snug, not tight.  It lost less than a quarter inch of tail and It took a hefty beating to get some slack back in the nub.  I think I'd still tie a cinch knot backup.)

I chose my current tie in knot because, once dressed, at least in my two ropes and all the ropes at my gym, it allows absolutely no tail movement when I try pushing, pulling, beating and shaking it.  I also get nowhere attempting to load only the eye, though I haven't created a hydraulic setup, yet. (I got the car jack, today, that I believe will work.)  The collar and the girth hitch switchback also ensure that the knot will never seize so hard that two quick snaps of those loops won't instantly release it.


SS369:

Quote
I figured if I placed the tail through the nipping ring it would inhibit the failure movement and it did. <<<For Knotlikely """-Scott's weave-         WHY?"""
But, I did not like the tail sticking out as it did. So, I continued to rove it upward through the collar to get it out of that position. (I do like tying decorative knots too.  ;)  ))
For me, it has proven to be a winner in every regard. Simple to tie, easy enough to inspect personally and for others once familiar, easy to untie and in climbing rope, as secure as I could want. Must be because it is my tie in loop and I have tested it every way this lay-climber can.
Heck, it even stays tied in aircraft cable.
Others may feel more complexity is needed or desired. That is theirs to decide.

I saw the picture of Scott's Weave (it feels strange referring to it as such when I'm talking to Scott!) as a stand alone modified collar.  Do you use Scott's Weave as a finish to Scott's Lock, or alone?  Do you tie a cinch knot to the returning eye leg?  If you routinely tie in with exclusively Scott's Weave, then you are a braver (or crazier) man than I.

Before I made my Girth Hitch Locked Bowline, I had considered (Scott's Lock finished with Scott's Weave) and (Scott's Weave finished with Scott's Lock and an Spart trace) and (Scott's Weave finished with the EBDB lock finish (as my tie-in has)).  All 3 of those seem incredibly stable, especially compared to a simple Scott's Lock or Scott's Weave.

My inability to tie the weave, or finish Scott's lock at the eye-legs, quickly and without looking may have been the determining factor in choosing the Girth Hitch Locked Bowline.
« Last Edit: March 03, 2020, 07:59:30 AM by KnotLikely »

SS369

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Good day Knotlikely.

I feel strange talking to a screen name, but that's ok.

My comment on your quote/comment to you was in partial error. When you wrote in post 1, "Scott's weave - Why?" I mistakenly thought you were referring to my simple lock for the bowline offering and were asking Why (bother)?

No, I don't use the composite eye knot that includes the woven collar. I feel it is unnecessary for my tie in and it was just an exploration to see if it indeed reduce the strain on the breaking location of a bowline. I looked pretty good although it didn't prove out.

I use the "Scott's simple lock for the Bowline" as I have offered it, as is.
I just snug it up very firmly, (Leave it be Dan) as I would most any knot. I have never been able to shake it loose. I even dragged it behind my truck to see if it would loosen (most violent slack shaking I could think of).  Intact.
And certainly have never lost any tail length nor sleep worrying about it.

I weigh 175 lbs., have taken substantial falls tied in with it, have used it to haul loads, e.i. lift trusses (much heavier than me) to the tops of buildings while the knot invariably rubbed the walls on the way up, pulled trucks out of mud, lowered large tree branches and many other uses. Never a hint of failure.

I am not selling it and whomever uses it, or any knot, especially in life critical situations, should feel supremely confident in their choice(s).
Mark Gommers, who is a respected rope using professional in his field, has at least some confidence in it. It is from professionals that I take notes from. Their livelihoods and sometimes their lives depend on their knowledge. Then I test it for myself and decide where or if it fits.

That said, I'm very glad that you've embark on this journey and that I have played a tiny role in lighting the fuse. ;-))

I'm done being off topic now...

Scott

KnotLikely

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Dan_Lehman

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-----will someone please tell me how to escape the  8) back into ( 8 )s, please?-----
There is supposedly something one can  switch OFF,
but I don't recall what and IMO it seemed giving up
capability for too little.  So, I've used a '.' to thwart
the getting-a-facial out of using '8' sometimes.

Quote
I'm personally interested only in climbing harness tie-in relevant bowlines,
at this time.  Part of this is my fascination with the knot.  Part of this is me having
realized how little information I could find on the practically infinite structures and
variations and finishes that are possible.  Part of this is that I'm sick of tying
figure 8 follow throughs and even more sick of attempting to untie them after any fall.

One way to have your 8 and eat it too,
is the Lehman8 --to wit:
(see Reply #9 at https://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=3133.0
I designed this eye knot expressly to have whatever the
magic was that made the fig.8 so strong AND the ease
of untying (via a collar) of the bowline --sorta succeeded.
Here's one informal report:
Quote
I loaded both the Zeppelin Loop and the Lehman8 to slightly greater than 50% MBS
 (~100kg in my stiff 3mm braid).
 Both knots did not noticeable slip and were easily untied after this high load.
> Spart

Rather, that's 'SPart' or even 'S.Part' !   ;)
--my hybrid merging of terms where I think
that strictly speaking, by definition & use,
"standing part" is ontologically limited to
the tying phase, and not necessarily
what becomes the fully loaded part of a knot
(i.p., where in using a reasonably short length
one can tie something *backwards* more
effectively than the *usual* way).
And I wanted it to mean that part that DOES
get the heavy load (of end-2-end joints & hitches,
of the 1-vs-2parts part of eye knots).


Quote
in the left hand with the working end coming toward me.
Spart shall be threaded from bottom to top through both loops
of a standard climbing harness and the working end will begin
all knots to the right side of the Spart.  My right hand will twist
to create the nipping loops in the Spart.  A "top twist" (Z chirality)
(right handed loop)(right hand thumb moving up)(loop formed on
the right side of Spart) will create a loop where the Spart goes
out the bottom and the working end, going into the harness,
will come out the top.  A "bottom twist" (right hand thumb moving down)
will create a loop where the Spart goes away from me on the
bottom side of the loop.  When multiple nipping loops
are created, they will be created and named from closest to me
to farthest from me.
  All working ends shall begin by going through
the bottom of the nipping loop, around the Spart, and returning through
the nipping loop from the top (notwithstanding Lee's Link "Bowline").
[reddened stmnt referred to below]

I'm afraid you've lost me with the above.
A common reference to loops can be a compass
rose or a clock (or degreed circle with 0/360 at
the top/N/12:00), though you seem to imply that
your eye will fall in a vertical plane perpendicular
to you (so to have lower/upper eye legs per the
harness tie-in points which are vertically arrayed).

IMO, all bowlines ("BWLs") should be presented
such that the SPart crosses on TOP --in a plane
perpendicular to viewing-- of the nipping loop
that it forms; historically, it has been just the
opposite --and opposite to this for the similar
sheet bend(!!)--, and this IMO contributes much
to confusion in understanding this knot.
(Agent_Smith's BWL paper calls my favored view
"the detail view", and uses it too seldom, but at
least puts it out there vs. parroting fully the
historical nonsense.)

As for "chirality" --an expensive substitute for "handedness"
 ;D --, IIRC Agent_Smith's reading of this disagrees with my
own.  (E.g., looking at an eye-going-up image on a page,
and the SPart going around anti-clockwise and crossing
OVER ..., I call that a right-handed loop.  But do note
that while at this *start* of the loop it's going indeed
as a Z helix, unlike that it comes around behind/below
itself, and of course a helix would continue turning up
and away!?)


Quote
For discussion of the nipping loops after initial creation, in cases where multiple nipping loops were created, the first nipping loop shall be the loop that cinches first (closest to running Spart).  **This may be the reverse of the order given in the creation of the nipping loops.**  The specific knot being discussed should already be defined.  Calling the loop that grabs first and the hardest the "first" just seems to make sense to me, as does creating them closest to me first and moving away.

Your red statements immediately & farther above IMO
contradict each other.  I side with this latter one, in the
spirit of its being what first gets the 100% force into it.
Though do note that a BWL can be "cast" in with a tail
to the SPart after some other tying occurs (and then
one might reeve the tail through this other knot for
security).

--dl*
====