Author Topic: Bowline?  (Read 247 times)

NAWTZ

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 11
Bowline?
« on: February 12, 2020, 05:32:15 PM »
From my research - this is not a Double or Water Bowline. Does anybody know the name of this Bowline?

Olegan67

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 89
Re: Bowline?
« Reply #1 on: February 12, 2020, 07:54:07 PM »
I think this is Double-Knotted Bowline or Double Bowline or Round Turn Bowline or ABOK #1013

Olegan67

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 89
Re: Bowline?
« Reply #2 on: February 12, 2020, 07:55:18 PM »

Dan_Lehman

  • Sr. Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3794
Re: Bowline?
« Reply #3 on: February 13, 2020, 01:07:09 AM »
It's clearly NOT a "round-turn" or "double" bowline,
which has the continued flow of the SPart tucking
under itself twice; this one goes over on the first
pass, and under just once.

It's also a knot that can be --maybe should be--
dressed such that the SPart turns around the bight
legs and then makes a long reach back up to be
tucked out.  (I find it hard to dress the knot into
the geometry shown above, in some firm, laid
poly-combo old rope --which partly gets gripped
by its lay.)  (Then, too, the commonly known
double bowline can be similarly dressed,
to produce the extended turning of the SPart.


--dl*
====

alanleeknots

  • Sr. Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 503
Re: Bowline?
« Reply #4 on: February 13, 2020, 01:10:35 AM »
Hi All,
          I think I see it before, is a single version of Tresse Double Bowline by Alpineer.
          See this link ; https://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=4480.45

         

Olegan67

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 89
Re: Bowline?
« Reply #5 on: February 13, 2020, 08:20:40 AM »
Hi All,
          I think I see it before, is a single version of Tresse Double Bowline by Alpineer.
          See this link ; https://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=4480.45

       
Hi Alan,this option is more like this Bowline.

NAWTZ

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 11
Re: Bowline?
« Reply #6 on: February 13, 2020, 05:48:14 PM »
I figured this Bowline already had a name, but it doesn't seem so. Then I call it "Under Bowline". The reason being is because I start with an underhand loop. Here are are some photos.

agent_smith

  • Sr. Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1030
Re: Bowline?
« Reply #7 on: February 13, 2020, 11:38:11 PM »
per NAWTZ:
Quote
The reason being is because I start with an underhand loop. Here are are some photos.

What you are starting with is a loop with S (left) chirality.
You then superpose another loop with Z (right) chirality.

The concept of "underhand" and "overhand" is meaningless.
For example, if you flip your first (S) loop over - how would you describe it?
It could just as easily be an 'overhand' loop by such a definition.

A useful analogy for chirality is a left-hand glove and a right-hand glove.
If you flip a left-hand glove over, it is still a left-hand glove.
Flipping to one side or the other does not change its geometry.

Summary:
You superposed an S and Z loop (ie S/Z).
You could also try the exact opposite... start with a Z loop and then superpose an S loop (ie Z/S).

I would comment that this structure offers nothing in terms of security or stability.

One of the simplest and useful creations is Scott's locked Bowline, which is inherently secure and has 3 rope diameters inside the nipping loop.

But, its good to see that you are experimenting - and this sometimes opens up new lines of research.

EDIT NOTE: Chirality is everywhere in nature. For example, humans have left and right hands, and left and right feet. Your left foot will always be 'left' - it can't be flipped or turned over to make it a 'right' foot.
If you look at all of the 'primary' Bowline illustrated in Ashley's book, you will note that they are illustrated with Z (right) chirality.
This leads me to speculate that Ashley was right-handed. Right handed people tend to tie Bowlines with Z (right) chirality. This is likely due to them holding the rope in their left hand and forming the initial nipping loop in their left hand. The rest of the maneuvers are then performed by their right hand. In part, this is so a clear view can be maintained over the tying process - so the hands don't obscure the structure.
A left-handed person would likely do the opposite...
Mind you, this is just my personal theory...
« Last Edit: February 13, 2020, 11:49:17 PM by agent_smith »

tsik_lestat

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 86
Re: Bowline?
« Reply #8 on: February 14, 2020, 02:23:01 AM »
Some remarks/suggestions per NAWTZ.....

1) If you seek for absolute correctness in knot recognition, should you provide at least one image with a loose form of your knot in the first place, as you did in your subsequent reply, revealing your knotting recipe.

2) I am not really sure why you insist on attaching a new name to an existing knot. As you have been informed previously, this knot is Alpineer's Tresse bowline, and it has been tied, evaluated and presented as far back as in 20 March 2013 by the original creator.
Link    https://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=4321.msg26983#msg26983

3) Nonetheless, this fact does not nullify your creativity, because i assume you got there without knowing its existence.

4) In my view, this is a strong stable and secure structure, even with this simple bight component, but a bit more challenging to untie, if pushed to its limits. The nipping structure is developed exactly as you show, where a Z loop is placed upon an S loop and the WE goes up through this double nip system.

5) However, if i was to anticipate your next knotting maneuver, in relation to this very structure, i would place the S loop upon the Z loop this time, passing then the WE down through this new nip system, capturing then the SP in order to stabilize it as bowline.

This would produce another known (at least to me) bowline, the shaped-8 bowline, tied by Xarax, with a TIB closed form shaped-8 nipping structure that would constrict and clamp a great deal the bight component, but not in so far as the knot would jam, if heavily loaded.

Image corresponding to structure described at 5), attached.
« Last Edit: February 16, 2020, 02:39:05 PM by tsik_lestat »

Dan_Lehman

  • Sr. Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3794
Re: Bowline?
« Reply #9 on: February 15, 2020, 07:31:18 PM »
Hi All,
          I think I see it before, is a single version of Tresse Double Bowline by Alpineer.
          See this link ; https://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=4480.45

Good eye !

 :)