Author Topic: Knot to secure an ATV, so sled dogs can't pull it over  (Read 1690 times)

WhiteFox

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Knot to secure an ATV, so sled dogs can't pull it over
« on: September 29, 2019, 10:50:39 AM »
Good morning!

I'm a new person in a fascinating world of knots as well as a new member of this community, so first of all, hello!

My question might be an easy to solve, but here it is. What knot would you recommend to tie an ATV to the tree which is at the same time easy to untie, once to rope is under the tension, preferably with one hand. I'm an amateur, so I've experimented with the Bowline knot, but found it difficult to untie without reversing few centimetres. I would like to avoid it, cause the pack of eager-to-go dogs doesn't expect to run backwards. Please, let me know few variations which you consider appropriate.

Best regards!

roo

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Re: Knot to secure an ATV, so sled dogs can't pull it over
« Reply #1 on: September 29, 2019, 05:16:40 PM »
Good morning!

I'm a new person in a fascinating world of knots as well as a new member of this community, so first of all, hello!

My question might be an easy to solve, but here it is. What knot would you recommend to tie an ATV to the tree which is at the same time easy to untie, once to rope is under the tension, preferably with one hand. I'm an amateur, so I've experimented with the Bowline knot, but found it difficult to untie without reversing few centimetres. I would like to avoid it, cause the pack of eager-to-go dogs doesn't expect to run backwards. Please, let me know few variations which you consider appropriate.

Best regards!
I'll let you try some options and decide what you like.  The Slipped Buntline Hitch and variants are fairly simple and most only require one pass of rope around the tree which would be nice if the tree is large:

https://notableknotindex.webs.com/slippedbuntline.html

If the load on the line is especially high, a Trigger Bend may be used to join to ends of rope to form a sling around a tree for very easy release:

https://notableknotindex.webs.com/triggerbend.html
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Dan_Lehman

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Re: Knot to secure an ATV, so sled dogs can't pull it over
« Reply #2 on: October 03, 2019, 06:01:26 PM »
I concur in Roo's recommending the slipped buntline h. :
with much force likely taken in the turn around the
tree (or other object), the knot itself will not be so
tight as to hinder spilling its slip-bight/QR mechanism
--an important consideration, for the mere presence
of such a structure does NOT ensure easy spilling!

At some embarrassment, I'll still post this long-winded
eye-knot solution, which in comparison shows what a
clever knotter can do : dream up something Too Clever
By Half !!

<sigh>
 :P
 ;)
 - - - - - - - - - - -
- - - - - - - - - - - -

What knot would you recommend to tie an ATV to the tree
 which [knot] is at the same time easy to untie,
 once to rope is under the tension,
 preferably with one hand.

I'm thinking of a bowlinesque quick-release eye knot.
Given that you know the bowline (to some degree of *knowing*),
let me suggest this solution.
1) The line will surround the tree --a normal eye knot--,
so that on release, the line will need to be pulled around
the tree.  (This is in contrast to what I call "slip-free" hitches,
where upon release, the line come completely "free" of
the hitched object --a bight having been taken around
(which thus comes at a cost of material --doubled by the
bight-- esp. for large objects!).

2) It more or less uses bowline *mechanics*/structure.

3) HERE IT IS.
Take line around object;
form a bight in the line's end,
   --long enough to wrap the SPart around 1-3 times,
      and to then have enough tail to tuck a "slip-bight"/toggle
      through the initial bight's exposed tip,
      with sufficient tail of toggle for you to grap to
      pull & release--
wrap the SPart's eye leg around this bight once, twice (, thrice?)
(this is making what for a bowline is called "the nipping
loop").  (The more-than-one wrap might gain you some
degree of easier release --try it and see, and if not, well,
just the one turn does it.
NB: I say "wrap the SPart's eye leg rather than "SPart"
itself, to guide you to wrapping towards bight tip
with SPart on the away end of wraps, not towards tip.
And if one did the easy thing of wrapping SPart ...,
then the knot will be too **helical** vs. **loop** and
put more force upon the toggle & be less stable, more open,
less desirable.
[Well, maybe not : considering that a sheepshank can bind
even though its bight surrounds nothing, maybe in your
particular circumstance/material you'll favor a more helical
and less gripping main structure!?]

Heck, one can work with the initial bight qua single-strand
and do the bowline quick-tie manuevre to put in the
nipping loop, then tuck through a slip-bight to close.

 - - - - - - - - -

My initial thoughts went to trying to build some hitching
structure by making rolling hitch sorts of jamming &
gripping structures with a bight, but this line of attack
gut cluttered with a long bight whose doubling of material
was a big price and the workings inversely good.


--dl*
====

jmlucassen

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Re: Knot to secure an ATV, so sled dogs can't pull it over
« Reply #3 on: October 05, 2019, 11:42:02 PM »
A (newbie) question to the experts: I see a lot of references to the slipped buntline hitch, but never to a slipped gnat hitch.
Is there some reason for this?  When trying them at home, they seem to be similar in function, and the slipped gnat hitch seems easier to tie...

roo

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Re: Knot to secure an ATV, so sled dogs can't pull it over
« Reply #4 on: October 06, 2019, 03:50:21 AM »
A (newbie) question to the experts: I see a lot of references to the slipped buntline hitch, but never to a slipped gnat hitch.
Is there some reason for this?  When trying them at home, they seem to be similar in function, and the slipped gnat hitch seems easier to tie...
While you could finish the Gnat Hitch with a slip bight, especially if loads aren't too heavy, the Gnat Hitch tends to compress the final tuck more than the Buntline Hitch compresses its final tuck.  This heavier compression of the Gnat Hitch makes it a bit less friendly to easy release while loaded.  If you wanted to use a slip bight to aid in rapid untying after load is removed, I don't see a problem.

The usual jam resistance of the Gnat Hitch makes a slip bight less important than it is for the more jam-prone Buntline Hitch that may need the hammer-action of a sliding slip to force it free.

With very hard strain, even a Slipped Buntline Hitch might be hard to release while loaded and so you might have to use force-reduction techniques as shown in the third diagram here:

https://notableknotindex.webs.com/slippedbuntline.html
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Twine

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Re: Knot to secure an ATV, so sled dogs can't pull it over
« Reply #5 on: October 12, 2019, 12:37:16 PM »
A slipped groundline hitch is easy to untie even under tension. If you feel it is not secure enough (because of bad slack security), then just slip another bight of the working end through the previous bight and pull everything tight.
"Simplicity is the ultimate sophistication" - Leonardo da Vinci

mcjtom

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Re: Knot to secure an ATV, so sled dogs can't pull it over
« Reply #6 on: January 06, 2020, 06:47:38 PM »
Quote
...so you might have to use force-reduction techniques as shown in the third diagram here:

https://notableknotindex.webs.com/slippedbuntline.html

Is there an advantage to the way the working part wraps around the standing part 360deg in this force-reduction technique on roo's website (as opposed to doing it in a fashion of Backhand 1852 hitch where the working wraps the standing part and returns in the opposite direction from where it came from around the object being hitched to, in a Munter hitch fashion)?

I don't seem to be capable of attaching an image illustrating my question (how do I do that?): here is a link to it.
« Last Edit: January 06, 2020, 07:06:10 PM by mcjtom »

roo

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Re: Knot to secure an ATV, so sled dogs can't pull it over
« Reply #7 on: January 07, 2020, 05:09:18 AM »
Quote
...so you might have to use force-reduction techniques as shown in the third diagram here:

https://notableknotindex.webs.com/slippedbuntline.html

Is there an advantage to the way the working part wraps around the standing part 360deg in this force-reduction technique on roo's website (as opposed to doing it in a fashion of Backhand 1852 hitch where the working wraps the standing part and returns in the opposite direction from where it came from around the object being hitched to, in a Munter hitch fashion)?

I don't seem to be capable of attaching an image illustrating my question (how do I do that?): here is a link to it.
If you want to make an estimate of the total angle of contact (in radians) for each rope in the scanarios you have in mind, you can calculate the total force reduction factor for each case via the equation shown here:

https://notableknotindex.webs.com/friction.html

For apples-to-apples comparison, assume all frictional coefficients are the same.
« Last Edit: January 07, 2020, 07:48:13 PM by roo »
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mcjtom

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Re: Knot to secure an ATV, so sled dogs can't pull it over
« Reply #8 on: January 07, 2020, 09:42:42 AM »
That's what I was thinking, but the difference between those 2 scenarios is about half-turn of rope-on-rope, where even if friction coefficients are similar, the sum of normals pushing this extra half-turn toward the standing part in the middle of it may not be that much higher).  And the behavior of the rope wrapped around the railing seems to change between those two scenarios when the standing part is 'flapping' - but I'm not sure which one I prefer or which one may be more secure.

Would there be a practical difference between those two techniques that people have experience with?  I also have seen a 'double backhand' reverse wrap (akin to super Munter), which seems solid, but that's a lot of rope.

Cheers!

KC

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Re: Knot to secure an ATV, so sled dogs can't pull it over
« Reply #9 on: January 07, 2020, 12:36:33 PM »
Tie an ATV to tree
.
Depending on strain, Slipped Gnat, Buntline, Trigger as said in order of higher strain(s) i think, depending on service duty
In some cases of steady pull a Round Turn or even single to Slipped Half Hitch w/Nip adjusted to/drawn to opposing side of host mount than pull
>>that would be topside from a downward pull for bight of slip.
>>Slipped Bag Knot
.
For Gnat, as Sheet Bend, the locking side that crosses leg from passive side to hot side of bight/hook  is thinner/tighter if any; and the passive bight side is host mount, softer/fluffier grab
Mismatch not working on Squares, for the properties must be equal, as if has advantage of small/tight tension on one side to Nip softer/fluffier to host, then on other side are trying to Nip that denser line with the softer against host.
« Last Edit: January 08, 2020, 12:21:26 AM by KC »
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