Author Topic: Knotting Matters 145  (Read 961 times)

KnotMe

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Knotting Matters 145
« on: January 09, 2020, 05:13:45 AM »
1) Succession Planning:

TL;DR:  The Guild should be more vocal in media, social media and press releases, responding to and creating events and content.

In response to Carolyn Draper and Lynne Hudson's letter, I know I will be repeating myself a little bit, but I also have some specific action ideas i thought be useful to share.

A) Scouts & Guides ++ (content and/or kits bundled for easy educator or activity leader use):
  In addition to scouts and guides, after school programs and actual school programs should be targeted.  The people running these programs are always looking for content and if we provide it to them in easy to use packages with freely available (if heavily branded.  8) ) PDFs or cheap-ish kits for a selection of useful knots.  More work would be a learning program for the scouts/guides.  More work would be STEM targeted content for the more academic programs.  More work might be knot content related to cultural events/holidays.

B) Search engine friendly content:
  I'm no spring chicken, and the younger you go, the more likely this is going to describe you.  "When I'm looking for info on something, the first thing I do is use a web search engine."  Even if I know that it's in a book on my shelf, because why spend 5 mins (or more) moving around the house and looking for something that might be available to you with 2 seconds of typing?  For those that don't have knot books on their shelves, then this could be the only resource they might have or think of using.  So, the Guild should make purpose build chunks of content, or repurpose Knotting Matters content for the web.  For example, "Knots and Heraldry" or "Knots for Cooking" (or aim higher, "Camping Knots" and "Fishing Knots").  Make Guild content easy to find and link to.  Make the Guild site the authority on all things knotty.

C) It's all about us:
   The Guild should engage in newsjacking.  Whenever something knotty happens in the world, the Guild should respond with a how-to or a news release/comment.  For instance, when Ylvis released their Trucker's Hitch song, the guild could have responded "the truckers hitch is not that difficult to tie, here are some instructions" or "here are 5 knots harder to tie than the trucker's hitch" or ...

  When random people (or members) attain knotty fame, like Philippe Petit or Windy Chien the Guild should recognize and celebrate them.  If necessary they should be claimed with honorary memberships.

  When forensic knotwork is involved in some crime drama it should be commented on (intelligently).  When a room for macrame appears in the Dark Shadows movie it should be feted.  etc.

  Further, the Guild can create awards (if Pantone can have a colour of the year...) for things and people (knot tyer of the year?  knot ambassador of the year?  young knot tyer of the year??).

D) Media Ambassadors
  There is a lot that goes on in online social media.  It would be impossible for one person to track it all.  So the Guild should nominate/accept volunteers/ambassadors as platforms appear/mature.  Someones to watch Facebook, Instagram, Twitter, etc.  Actually it should probably be more than one.  At least 2 per platform working together with a role profile to share the burden, prevent ball droppage, and rogue actions in the name of the Guild.

E) Cross Crafting
  The Guild should also reach out to their allied crafts as many are in the same situation aging-wise.  Invite articles from them, propose articles from us in the various publications and newsletters.  The most obvious is The Braid Society, but also basketweavers, all manner of textile arts, wire work.  Further afield (?) are sports (fishing, climbing, etc), professions (rescue, theatre rigging, etc), academia (math, science, history, etc)

F) Show us what you've got
  The Guild should make effort to support, showcase, and celebrate those exhibiting in their name (or even those not in the name of the Guild.  If there is an artisan selling knotworks whether it be macrame, paracord, etc, interview them, invite them to the Guild).  Shows are fun but exhausting.  Still, some high profile ones should be targeted such as Bridges, Maker Faires, the international knot exhibitions, and the tall ship events.

2) World Knot Tying Day:
For World Knot Tying Day, I made an Instagram video for a True Love Knot/Sauvastika handfasting ceremony idea
https://www.instagram.com/p/B6MYk_RnfA7/

KC

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Re: Knotting Matters 145
« Reply #1 on: January 13, 2020, 11:45:40 AM »
Very nice,
i think are saying IGKT should take their rightful place and show "Visible Leadership" worldwide in knotting matters.
>>Taking news events as opportunities to make/show contributions and even propel forward
.
This would be the light, at least i hoped to find here, thru all the other mis-matched hordes of information on dying art.
This Glossary a very good example of definitive leadership on this for now
>>and ready to showcase as definitive, more publicly if can harvest proper timing to do so etc.
Thread: Glossary posted on front of site
.
i think if IGKT could become pivotal scouting resource, would be great leadership contribution;
laying seedlings into the future at same time.
Rope-n-Saw Life
"Nature, to be commanded, must be obeyed" -Sir Francis Bacon
We now return you to the safety of normal thinking peoples.
~ Please excuse the interruption; thanx -the mgmt.~

agent_smith

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Re: Knotting Matters 145
« Reply #2 on: January 15, 2020, 06:39:27 AM »
per KC:
Quote
i think are saying IGKT should take their rightful place and show "Visible Leadership" worldwide in knotting matters.
>>Taking news events as opportunities to make/show contributions and even propel forward

and:
Quote
This Glossary a very good example of definitive leadership on this for now

This has been attempted before (in fact, several times) and it always ends the same way...bogs down with no uniform consensus reached.
Sometimes various individuals have attempted to obtain consensus under the title of knot terminology....which generally bogs down and leads nowhere.
I have read through Robert Birch's paper - and it is better than most (in my view).
It is dated 2019, so I assume he has gleaned a good deal of information from various threads and posts on this forum and maybe from individual technical papers?

You will find that some IGKT members will vehemently resist the notional introduction of a 'fixed eye knot' in lieu of a 'loop knot'.
The concept of loop versus eye has resulted in heated debate... and in some cases, outrage.

For me personally, a compelling argument can be made that only a 'loop' can have a particular chiralty (S or Z twist).
An 'eye' does not have chirality.
For me, the so-called 'loop' of a #1047 F8 knot isn't a 'loop', it is an eye.
Being an 'eye', it has no chirality.
All 'Bowlines' have a nipping 'loop' - which can be either S or Z chirality.
The nipping 'loop' is distinguished from the fixed 'eye' - one has chirality while the other doesn't.
BUT - as stated, not everyone will agree - and you probably will never get 100% consensus on a strict definition of an 'eye' versus a 'loop'.
Some might argue that this is due to the individuality of the IGKT membership - each person has their own perspective and life experience, which is shaped by how they learnt and from whom they learnt. Traditional views can be strongly ingrained - and hard to change. And some would argue that 'change' is not needed - and the current status quo works just fine.

** With specific regard to Robert Birch glossary of knot terminology - I disagree with some of his terms (see, there you go!) with the notional concept of 'underhand' and 'overhand' in terms of describing a 'loop'.
These concepts are nebulous and not needed. One can simply state: loop (S chirality/twist) or loop (Z chirality/twist). Same goes for 'clockwise' and 'anti-clockwise'...again, nebulous and not needed.
And, with regard to 'turns' - it should be:
[ ] U turn (180 degrees)
[ ] Turn (360 degrees)
[ ] Round turn (540 degrees)
Also, Birch's concept of 'open' turn and 'closed' turn is (in my view) not necessary...which is simply in relation to the 'overlap' of the 2 rope segments crossing each other in the formation of a 'loop'.
And for me, a 'hitch' requires a 'host' object to form around - without which, the 'hitch' ceases to exist.

I have personally encountered hate-based responses from individuals on various climbing community forums regarding the use of the term 'offset' in lieu of 'flat' or 'one-sided' for describing #1410 overhand bend. The degree of hate-based posts from some quarters was quite alarming - and showed that some people will never accept nor try to understand alternative technical concepts. Some cry foul of anyone even attempting to publish technical papers on #1410... ridiculing such efforts.
In my view, the term 'offset' has a measurable meaning while 'flat' or 'one-sided' does not. But thats my personal view.
In some cases, it comes down to a dislike of anyone who might be perceived to be a knot 'expert' - with the term 'expert' immediately arousing ill feeling.
In any case, what (or who) is a knot 'expert'. Such a title arouses suspicion... (and who exactly has the right to be proclaimed as a knot expert?).

...

Also, one has to ask:
[ ] who exactly comprises the IGKT?
[ ] is the IGKT an 'authority' on knots?
[ ] what or who is an 'authority' on knots?
[ ] does the lay public view the IGKT an authoritative body?
[ ] does the IGKT wish to be viewed/seen as an 'authority' on knots?
[ ] is the lay public aware on the IGKT?
[ ] is the IGKT a collection of individuals who generally have a passion for knots?
[ ] can you get 'individuals' to agree on a common set of terminology?
[ ] is there a technical standards committee existing within the IGKT?
[ ] who should comprise such a committee (if it even exists)?
[ ] is such a committee desirable?

and so on...
« Last Edit: January 15, 2020, 07:05:32 AM by agent_smith »

KC

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Re: Knotting Matters 145
« Reply #3 on: January 15, 2020, 12:08:47 PM »
Quote from: Arthur Schopenhauer
All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed. Second, it is violently opposed. Third, it is accepted as being self-evident.
i know this to be true,
have walked these 3 stages of ridicule
>>were even acceptance as self-evident is a ridicule of why did you bring it up even in first place
>>but no one wants to talk about why they fought so long then if self evident
>>just that it was none-sense trap to bring up...  the frustration is obviously with themselves i think..
Escape from Plato's cave; can hurt eyes, has many traps; especially if riding point !
.
In paradigm limits, the only way to go froward is throw to the opposite side,
like a cyclic growth back and forth, but always higher, like leaf node spacing around vine
.
Sometimes, have to keep throwing it until the wall holds like spaghetti i think.
.
I have read through Robert Birch's paper - and it is better than most (in my view).
It is dated 2019, so I assume he has gleaned a good deal of information from various threads and posts on this forum and maybe from individual technical papers?
i think that is thankfully evident, and not just old info; but closer to state of art pulse beat
.
i don't agree with all the terms stated either, i have more personal ones myself of c(o)urse...
>>who knows, might not even agree with you on all your fine efforts either
>>but in both cases, applaud the effort, lending AND real depth of timely info and passion it takes.
.
And, with regard to 'turns' - it should be:
[ ] U turn (180 degrees)
[ ] Turn (360 degrees)
[ ] Round turn (540 degrees)
Also, Birch's concept of 'open' turn and 'closed' turn is (in my view) not necessary...which is simply in relation to the 'overlap' of the 2 rope segments crossing each other in the formation of a 'loop'.
And for me, a 'hitch' requires a 'host' object to form around - without which, the 'hitch' ceases to exist.
Totally agree on the clear intent of the 180/360/540 of which half circle arcs i try to present are meant as shorthand of.
To me bight is simply unmounted Turn, but then in the bight means without ends
i think knot used as hitch is termination of linear force flow thru rope, whereby used as bend is simply dual port as continuation/not termination
>>To me, all knots in working usage require host mounts; even if it is another line in bend/marriage of 2 ropes getting hitched..
.
Ye Olde; International Guild of Knot Tyers
Always and all ways sounded to me like a venerable knotting authority 
>> and perhaps more than most stands positioned to do so by that measure
>> i came starving, and left too many times the same over years
i did not expect to find such a 'basket weaving'(sorry) presence, but that was just my own closed-mindedness
>>the forum is closer to working knot references i seek
.
i think knotting/weaving may be the primary engineering technology reached outside self
>>of a set of steps had to do right or fail
>>connected to enact against force(mechanical)
>>that also introduced connecting properties their values (outside self) for first time
And these things carry thru all mechanix and forces
>>even a computer program, is a list of steps that must be done in order, that enact on target, but must be 'bound' together in chain to work.
Loading force against a knot machine is like turning on power to computer program, what is written by your hands, plays out faithfully per rules.
>>so is best to know rules, and build/groom to them
.
i think pretty definitively man was weaving clothes and shelter >> which extended to usage in tooling
before commanded fire, lever, wheel etc., probably before any real oral language, certainly before written
>>perhaps would seem, even before confident upright walking(?)
Yet, we haven't figured it all out yet; and have forgotten even much of what we knew seems sometimes.
>>to then find knotting ruling in some parts of the micro world!
.
Knotting thus might be our rawest, earliest extended mechanic with many innate lessons that escape description;
>>but should be taught, stepped thru for knot's yield that is hard to capture on a page.
Before more slips away, as some might go out of fashion, but the principle mechanix never fade and have lessons of how the world works.
Just as riding a bike is an important lesson that probably carries farther into us than realize
>>L-earning to read self, command balance and go forward
Not something see a lot of adults do, but certainly part of their making of skill, and shared base of experience as well.
.
I have personally encountered hate-based responses from individuals on various climbing community forums regarding the use of the term 'offset' in lieu of 'flat' or 'one-sided' for describing #1410 overhand bend. The degree of hate-based posts from some quarters was quite alarming - and showed that some people will never accept nor try to understand alternative technical concepts....
But i was only kidding....
>>no seriously , i know what you mean
i've even had to take hiatus from here due to how folks talk to each other
>>not even towards me so much ; but towards others that i just simply didn't want to be a Standing Part of
And have watched while others faded from here, not to come back; that always seemed to me to stem from similar feelings.
.
edit:
At one forum a member slammed another and said he would not answer the question asked, for he would not google such useless info.
i answered the question, and changed my name to *useless info* giving somehow even more license to say thoughts..
« Last Edit: January 17, 2020, 12:42:41 PM by KC »
Rope-n-Saw Life
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We now return you to the safety of normal thinking peoples.
~ Please excuse the interruption; thanx -the mgmt.~

KnotMe

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Re: Knotting Matters 145
« Reply #4 on: January 15, 2020, 09:25:49 PM »
Also, one has to ask:
[ ] who exactly comprises the IGKT?
The membership.  Although, I would argue that non-members who are clearly experts (eg. scientists working on various knot-related things; official, national knot-related cultural treasures of Asia and elsewhere; reknowned authors, etc) should be claimed with honourary and/or lifetime memberships

Quote
[ ] is the IGKT an 'authority' on knots?
[ ] what or who is an 'authority' on knots?
[ ] does the lay public view the IGKT an authoritative body?
[ ] is the lay public aware on the IGKT?
The lay public does not know or care.

The IGKT is sort of an authority on knots and I believe can just step forward and claim the role (no one else is fighting for it!)

Quote
[ ] does the IGKT wish to be viewed/seen as an 'authority' on knots?
I suppose this is a question for the membership, but I would have thought "yes".

Quote
[ ] is the IGKT a collection of individuals who generally have a passion for knots?
why would you join otherwise?

Quote
[ ] can you get 'individuals' to agree on a common set of terminology?
No, but you can get a majority consensus, then stick to it long enough...

Quote
[ ] is there a technical standards committee existing within the IGKT?
[ ] who should comprise such a committee (if it even exists)?
[ ] is such a committee desirable?

and so on...
Not yet, but if enough members want such a thing, it could be created.

wysper

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Re: Knotting Matters 145
« Reply #5 on: March 18, 2020, 02:29:40 AM »
Sorry in advance for the long post!

I wasn?t sure I should post on this one as I am only a forum member and not a member of the guild, but my thoughts on this since I am not a member but an interested party might be of interest.

I am in my late 40s and come late to knots and knot tying, excluding shoes and the like. I originally got interested when I saw a paracord bracelet. So where did I turn, why youtube of course.

After seeing many tutorial videos of varying quality, I ended up more often than (k)not watching JD Lenzen at TIAT on youtube. After tying many different bracelets I have bought 3 of his books. And since then bought several other knot books including the knotting bible Ashleys Book of Knots.

I still regularly check on several youtube knotting channels, some of which might be by members here. I also really enjoy camping and household knots so preppers, outdoors types for lashings, ridgelines, tent lines etc. Oh, and also sailing knots.

Web resources include Animated Knots and a few others.

I have found IGKT fairly recently but it wouldn?t be my first stop for a knot problem or indeed to learn a new knot. I would probably use google or youtube first. The main reason is I don?t feel I have the knotting vocabulary or knowledge to describe an issue I would have accurately enough and with the correct terminology. I would also put myself in the same boat for understanding any answer to my question. So for me, I perceive a barrier to entry.

We have all seen the comments on the youtube videos where someone comments (regardless if they are actually trying to be helpful or not) on someone using an incorrect term, bight instead of loop, bitter end instead of working end, line instead of rope etc. Now if the correction was vital to understanding or the actual reason there was a problem fine, however it is usually not and usually comes across as quite condescending. Then can even start a flame war.

This hobby, like all others, as you know more, precise terminology and understanding is required, this is true in anything, take music and advanced theory surely gets very technical. I am learning the guitar and most of the theory goes straight over my head so if someone goes too far that way I get lost very quickly and can lose interest and motivation. So it needs to be suitable.

Which leads me to if you wanted to be looked at as an authority, you would need to be visible and welcoming, have many levels of technical engagement and plenty of resources that are easily accessible and available. Bizarrely, this is probably more important than being right initially.

Videos, PDFs, forum boards that are suitable for beginners with friendly respondents that wont make someone feel bad for using an incorrect term when trying to find something out.

I think the idea of working with the film industry, scouting is good, also you could consider sailing schools, climbing schools, transport industry, outdoors/camping/adventure industry. The big question here might in fact be, does anybody want this? Is this looking to fix a need that isn?t there? Course, this is all easy to say and I imagine much harder to do! LOL

But still interesting to talk about.

SS369

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Re: Knotting Matters 145
« Reply #6 on: March 18, 2020, 06:27:36 PM »
Good day wysper and welcome.

I believe I understand your sentiments, some here are a tough audience.  ;)

That said, you mention learning new knots and going elsewhere to do so. Yes, there a few websites that have incredible graphics and vids, though they show, mostly, knots that are not new and are shown in/at 99% of the knot places (books and Internet).

Here, in the IGKT Forum, we show actual knots that are "new", Or modified to improve them, meaning you'll, probably likely come up empty in searches. They are discussed here, details given, questions answered to their abilities.
Sometimes the answers and discourse are clear as mud, but there will, almost always, be a clearer view to ponder if you ask.

We have knot tyers from all over the world, with different backgrounds, occupations and education and language. A few actually use knotwork, either for their vocation, rescue, construction, climbing and decorative, etc..  Maybe not "expert, but certainly professionals.
I am sure they'll give you a piece of their minds.

I came to find the IGKT, in searching for an answer to whether I discovered a "new" knot. Been here ever since through thick and thin.
Some have left for various reasons I won't give voice to, but others, knowledgeable, have stayed and others, new, have joined us here.

Don't let the unfamiliarity of terms hinder your explorations or posts. Ask questions till you get what you need. Maybe you'll even bring in some better terms !?

As for what the Guild will do in the future? Why not ask them on their site directly. Post your question(s) directly to the president of either the main branch or the branch that represents the area that you live nearest to.  https://www.igkt.net/contact-the-igkt

SS