Author Topic: The Blimp Knot (and a variant) as a stopper knot?  (Read 386 times)

PolymathArtisan

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The Blimp Knot (and a variant) as a stopper knot?
« on: September 13, 2019, 10:02:42 AM »
Hi al,

Recently I've been trying to find the perfect stopper knot. I  wanted something bulky, easy to tie and untie, non-jamming, and with in-line ends (unlike the EStar for example, where the two ends come out of the knot at right angles).

I was playibg around with Zeppelin-like mechanics and came up with the Blimp Knot (I found the name online after looking through some lists). It seems like it should tuxk all of my boxes, but I couldn't find much information about it. Does anyone have any experience of it as a practical stopper knot or any research / data that might be useful?

When I was playing around I actually first came up with http://imgur.com/a/SHl3TMc (I'm at sea, on my phone at the moment, so using imgur is easier than compressing pictures).  The extra turj on the standing side means there are two diameters of line in the 'toggle' like an original zeppelin bend, and adds bulk to the standing-end-side of the knot itself, which would improve it as a stopper knot. Any knowledge (or opinions) on this variation?

Thanks and blue skies!

roo

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Re: The Blimp Knot (and a variant) as a stopper knot?
« Reply #1 on: September 13, 2019, 05:03:58 PM »
Hi al,

Recently I've been trying to find the perfect stopper knot. I  wanted something bulky, easy to tie and untie, non-jamming, and with in-line ends (unlike the EStar for example, where the two ends come out of the knot at right angles).

I was playibg around with Zeppelin-like mechanics and came up with the Blimp Knot (I found the name online after looking through some lists). It seems like it should tuxk all of my boxes, but I couldn't find much information about it. Does anyone have any experience of it as a practical stopper knot or any research / data that might be useful?

When I was playing around I actually first came up with http://imgur.com/a/SHl3TMc (I'm at sea, on my phone at the moment, so using imgur is easier than compressing pictures).  The extra turj on the standing side means there are two diameters of line in the 'toggle' like an original zeppelin bend, and adds bulk to the standing-end-side of the knot itself, which would improve it as a stopper knot. Any knowledge (or opinions) on this variation?

Thanks and blue skies!

I don't think there is any perfect stopper knot out there.  As one tries to increase bulk, often what happens is that instability is increased and the knot can distort or capsize into a longer shape that will have a similar effective stopper size or cross-sectional area as the handful of standard stoppers.  Sometimes as the mating hole distorts the knot, some of the partially or fully capsized knot forms can become a horribly jammed mess.

The Blimp Knot tends to get reserved to decorative applications due to the skill needed to tie it, but if you know the Gnat Hitch, you can get the Blimp Knot for free.  Tie a Gnat Hitch around your finger, remove your finger and then flip the bight around the standing part toward the free end and the Blimp Knot should appear.  This technique may make it more accessible to the average tyer.

https://notableknotindex.webs.com/gnathitch.html

« Last Edit: September 13, 2019, 05:25:06 PM by roo »
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PolymathArtisan

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Re: The Blimp Knot (and a variant) as a stopper knot?
« Reply #2 on: September 13, 2019, 09:03:21 PM »
Thanks for your thoughts roo. I don't really think of the Blimp knot as difficult to tie, but I suppose that's because none of us on the forum qualify as average tyers. I like the gnat hitch trick, are you awarw of the method of tying which starts from a slip knot / noose (then thread the working end through the noose and dress it).

Blue skies
« Last Edit: September 13, 2019, 09:09:43 PM by PolymathArtisan »

Dan_Lehman

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Re: The Blimp Knot (and a variant) as a stopper knot?
« Reply #3 on: September 13, 2019, 09:26:28 PM »
Except that the tail here doesn't really come out
at other than a right angle, being slack.  It looks
like a beefing up of the not-quite Stevedore knot,
with a frill on top.  (not-quite enough turning)

What's the task?  What's the material?
(Why is it being untied?)


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PolymathArtisan

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Re: The Blimp Knot (and a variant) as a stopper knot?
« Reply #4 on: September 14, 2019, 08:52:53 PM »
Quote
Except that the tail here doesn't really come out
at other than a right angle, being slack.

Not quite sure what you mean here Dan? To reduce confusion, what I originally meant was:
  • In the EStar Stopper knot the tail leaves the knot at a right angle to the direction it came in.
  • In the Blimp knot, the tail leaves in the same direction it came in.
Would you not agree? Certainly in practice, if the standing end is anchored somewhere and you pull on the working end, they will be pretty much in line, but when they are unloaded /'I think they they lie naturally at right angles.

Admittedly, (1) isn't actually a problem, I just prefer it if the ends are inline like this because...

Quote
What's the task?

...I would be using it as a stopper on sailing boats (and occasionally with light-duty indoor rigging) and so when the stopper actually came into play (i.e. was drawn up against something), I would want to pull on the tail (which I always leave at least a few feet long) to control the line. Inline ends just seem aesthetically better for this, but I know in practical terms there is really very little difference.

Quote
What's the material?
Modern racing yacht sheets and similar (possibly control lines or halyards, but mostly sheets). This means variations on core-and-cover braided lines in modern materials (polyester and dyneema). Stuff like Marlow's D2 Racing lines.

Quote
(Why is it being untied?)
Because it's being tied in racing yacht sheets. Sheets and other lines which I (mostly as the bowman / pit) might be handling are often stowed in the boat when not in use, and quite often need re-reeving when in use (e.g. during a running a headsail change). The lines do need stoppers on the end, but it's good to have a stopper which will definitely not jam, and can be undone fairly quickly and easily if need be (in the right line, the Blimp knot can be completely unmade in just two steps!)

Blue skies

Dan_Lehman

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Re: The Blimp Knot (and a variant) as a stopper knot?
« Reply #5 on: September 19, 2019, 10:13:54 PM »
Quote
Except that the tail here doesn't really come out
at other than a right angle, being slack.

Not quite sure what you mean here Dan? To reduce confusion, what I originally meant was:
  • In the EStar Stopper knot the tail leaves the knot at a right angle to the direction it came in.
  • In the Blimp knot, the tail leaves in the same direction it came in.
Would you not agree? Certainly in practice, if the standing end is anchored somewhere and you pull on the working end, they will be pretty much in line, but when they are unloaded /'I think they they lie naturally at right angles.
Yes, this just-lying-about state was what I'd
in mind; and your sometimes-loading-long-tail
state shows a purpose to your desired alignment!

Thanks,
(-;

jmlucassen

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Re: The Blimp Knot (and a variant) as a stopper knot?
« Reply #6 on: September 19, 2019, 11:49:46 PM »
For what it's worth, I recently tied a collection of stopper knots, in approximate order of increasing size (of the hole it won't pass through).  See attached photo.
I believe they are, in clockwise order:
1. Overhand knot
2. Figure eight knot
3. Double overhand knot
4. Stevedore knot
5. Ashley's stopper knot
6. Overhand loop
7. Heaving line knot
8. Figure eight loop
9. Estar stopper

agent_smith

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Re: The Blimp Knot (and a variant) as a stopper knot?
« Reply #7 on: September 20, 2019, 01:26:53 AM »
Hello PolymathArtisan,
Have your enquiries been satisfactorily answered?
The #582 lanyard knot (aka Blimp knot per Budworth) appears to satisfy your needs re employment as a stopper knot.

The real question (in my view) is whether the 'footprint' of this knot is sufficient to occlude all of your rigging equipment/pulley blocks?
Does it act effectively as a 'stopper knot' with all of your rigging gear?

Leaving a length of tail which is axially inline with the rest of the rope seems like a good idea (like a 'rats tail'). Easy to grasp and pull.

As for any concerns about complexity of tying #582, this really isn't an issue. Presumably with practice you would be proficient and 100% confident in your knot tying abilities.
And even if you had a new crew member, it isn't too hard to teach and confirm their ability to tie this knot.
Its really all about pattern recognition skills and noticing how it resists compression when tightly pulled.
The distinctive collars have opposite over/under geometry and the SPart and tail are in perfect axial alignment.

jmlucassen

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Re: The Blimp Knot (and a variant) as a stopper knot?
« Reply #8 on: September 20, 2019, 03:04:08 PM »
Is this the blimp knot you have in mind?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QXwHE2jJETA
It is easy to tie and has a nice symmetric appearance, and it seems very good for marking the end of a rope.
However, it does seem to require quite a bit of dressing, and when I try to use it as a stopper, the collar can capsize (depending on the size of rope and hole), which jams the knot and make it difficult to untie.

By contrast, the Ashley stopper knot seems more jam-proof due to its trefoil structure.

agent_smith

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Re: The Blimp Knot (and a variant) as a stopper knot?
« Reply #9 on: September 20, 2019, 04:01:30 PM »
Quote
However, it does seem to require quite a bit of dressing, and when I try to use it as a stopper, the collar can capsize (depending on the size of rope and hole), which jams the knot and make it difficult to untie.

As for the collar folding over - it can only 'fold' so far, then it stops (because of compression when abutted against something).
To induce further fold-over, you would need to have a specific sized orifice/gap to press upon - to push against the collar segment in order to cause further harm to the knot.

Even if the collar that is abutted against an object is forced to 'excessively' fold - the opposite collar will always be loose.
By working that loose collar, you can then continue and work everything else loose. That's my experience with it anyway.

...

#526 definitely has a larger relative 'bulk/volume' and does not have a 'collar' that can be vulnerable to fold-over.
However, I think it would be more vulnerable to jamming when one side is abutted against an object and undergoes compression (compared to the lanyard/Blimp knot).

Be interesting to get the original posters comments if he has tried #526 in comparison to #582 (Blimp knot) - with his yacht rigging gear.

Dan_Lehman

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Re: The Blimp Knot (and a variant) as a stopper knot?
« Reply #10 on: September 21, 2019, 12:12:04 AM »
For what it's worth, I recently tied a collection of stopper knots, in approximate order of increasing size (of the hole it won't pass through).  See attached photo.
I believe they are, in clockwise order:
1. Overhand knot
2. Figure eight knot
3. Double overhand knot
4. Stevedore knot         <<<<<<<< a half-turn short = Fig.9
5. Ashley's stopper knot
6. Overhand loop
7. Heaving line knot
8. Figure eight loop
9. Estar stopper

Note that #4 is the mistaken knot for that name.
And the real point of the knot, IMO, isn't bulk
but security when slack --they coils should grip
the SPart of a tightened knot and hold it tight.
(And the fig.10 = Stevedore's (a rope company) knot
tucks through the SPart's loop such that that turn's
direction of un-winding will turn INTO the tail.)


Note that one can tie an Ashley's stopper with
doubled line for doubled bulk.  (And if the overhand
part of this knot is oriented in reverse --where it
will NOT be "TIB"--, it will not be able to pull
through (as the SPart will now turn over/around
the rim of the overhand vs. back through its center).


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jmlucassen

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Re: The Blimp Knot (and a variant) as a stopper knot?
« Reply #11 on: September 22, 2019, 02:26:22 PM »
Dan, thanks for those explanations.
In particular, the Ashley stopper with the overhand part tied in reverse is a clever, dare I say delightful variation.

One more question for this thread - given the application (long cordage used in boating), it seems that a TIB stopper knot would have an advantage.
Would anyone care to comment on using a butterfly loop (tied with a very small loop) as a TIB alternative to the blimp knot?

siriuso

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Re: The Blimp Knot (and a variant) as a stopper knot?
« Reply #12 on: September 22, 2019, 07:56:47 PM »
Hi jimlucassen,

Yes, the Butterfly Loop ABOK#1053 is always my favorite knot as a stopper for either inside or outside the eye/mesh.

yChan
« Last Edit: September 22, 2019, 08:11:08 PM by siriuso »