Author Topic: New bend?  (Read 230 times)

robsteele

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New bend?
« on: August 24, 2019, 09:17:55 PM »
New user here who thinks he might have found a new knot.  It seems too obvious to be new but my very slight researches on animatedknots.com showed nothing.  It's interlocked overhand knots similar to the zeppelin bend, the Ashley bend, and Hunter's bend, but maybe better.  Here're some photos: https://photos.app.goo.gl/3qhTFUKdfKcYRfBh7.

If it is indeed new, I propose to call it the B D Bend because it starts by forming the free ends into the letters B and D.  It also sounds cool with that nice alliteration, cooler than Steele Bend, though that sounds cool too with the suggestion of strength without brittleness.

Eager to hear what you think!


roo

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Re: New bend?
« Reply #1 on: August 24, 2019, 10:29:40 PM »
It looks like the Hunter's Bend or Rigger's bend.  I've compared a mirror image of one of your steps to a corresponding step in a wiki article image on the Hunter's in the attached photo.
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robsteele

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Re: New bend?
« Reply #2 on: August 24, 2019, 11:27:32 PM »
It starts the same as the Hunter's bend but ends differently.   The free ends go through both loops.  I need to make a clearer picture of that step.  Thanks.

Edit: I added a few photos.  It is striking how much the finished knot looks like a Hunter's bend.
« Last Edit: August 25, 2019, 12:24:13 AM by robsteele »

roo

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Re: New bend?
« Reply #3 on: August 25, 2019, 12:28:37 AM »
Edit: I added a few photos.  It is striking how much the finished knot looks like a Hunter's bend.
Because it is the Hunter's Bend.
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robsteele

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Re: New bend?
« Reply #4 on: August 25, 2019, 01:33:59 AM »
You're right.  I'm convinced.  Thanks.

Dan_Lehman

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Re: New bend?
« Reply #5 on: August 25, 2019, 09:55:45 PM »
You're right.  I'm convinced.  Thanks.
Puzzled how you could have NOT seen this, at once!?
(One answer : because your checked source got it wrong
--some do (some IGKT authors, no less!).  But Animated
Knots gets it right.)

And how did you come to discover this knot for yourself?
(You're at least the 4th person to do so.)


(-;

agent_smith

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Re: New bend?
« Reply #6 on: August 26, 2019, 03:16:27 AM »
robsteele,

Don't  in any way feel disheartened or discouraged.
If I had a dollar for every time someone thought they invented a new knot only to discover that someone else got there first - I might be able to retire!

Consider the fact that Edward Hunter claimed he discovered what he called "Hunters bend" and had it published on the front page of the Times newspaper on OCT 06 1978. To his later 'embarrassment' (or should I say astonishment), it was realized that Phil Smith had already published the same knot in his 'Knots for Mountaineering' book in 1953!
One thing I have been unable to track down is a later retraction from the Times newspaper pointing out the error?? Usually, if print media get the facts wrong - they normally publish a correction in a later edition... but I haven't seen it?

The is also an 'X' version of #1425A Riggers bend (see attached images).
I would point out that #1425A Riggers bend jams solid - a much better 'bend' (in my view) is the Zeppelin bend,

In fact, this is the event that was the trigger for creating the IGKT!

There are an entire cohort of knots ('bends') that can be created from simple inter-linked (and superposed) overhand knots.
I've attached a sampler document for you to consider...

Happy knotting :)

EDIT NOTE: In your original presentation, you show S/S chirality.
Note that roo shows Z/Z chirality.
Its always interesting to see the 'handedness' that people use when presenting various knots.
Bowlines are another cohort of eye knots where the central 'nipping loop' can be tied as either left (S) or right (Z) chirality.
« Last Edit: August 26, 2019, 07:01:46 AM by agent_smith »

robsteele

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Re: New bend?
« Reply #7 on: August 26, 2019, 03:32:33 PM »
Quote
Puzzled how you could have NOT seen this, at once!?

Stupidity.

Quote
And how did you come to discover this knot for yourself?

I was playing around with ways to join two overhand knots and thought that beginning a zeppelin bend with the bights intertwined might be an improvement.  I found this https://photos.app.goo.gl/FYMf2vYVcbLFYR7W8, which is just a twist away from Hunter's Bend, which is much more compact and elegant.

Edit: Still, please take a look at the variation in that link.  It's a very slight variation but it is different and might be something.
« Last Edit: August 26, 2019, 07:28:31 PM by robsteele »

robsteele

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Re: New bend?
« Reply #8 on: August 26, 2019, 03:34:07 PM »
Quote
Happy knotting :)

Thanks!

agent_smith

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Re: New bend?
« Reply #9 on: August 26, 2019, 11:41:46 PM »
Hello robsteele,

Thanks for allowing us to see what you have described as a '69' bend.
No - its not new.
All of the possible combinations of bends that can be created inter-linked or superposed loops have been tied at one time or another by Xarax, yChan and myself (and likely a number of others too).

Just some quick responses to your comments (if i may):
Quote
I was playing around with ways to join two overhand knots and thought that beginning a zeppelin bend with the bights intertwined might be an improvement.
I am interested that you tried to 'improve' the Zeppelin bend.
Be aware that it is (in its native form) already a superb way to unite 2 ropes. It is totally jam resistant and its both stable and secure.
I have not been able to induce jamming despite loading all the way to its MBS yield point.

Please note: The Zeppelin bend is created from 2 loops that are superposed.
The 'bend' that you presented is created from 2 loops that are inter-linked.
I have found that most (but not all) bends created from inter-linked loops are vulnerable to jamming.
An exception is the #1053 derived Butterfly bend which appears to be jam resistant right up to its MBS yield point.
Note that the #1053 derived Butterfly bend is built from 2 inter-linked loops which have opposite chirality (and with tails oriented in same direction).

Quote
I found this https://photos.app.goo.gl/FYMf2vYVcbLFYR7W8, which is just a twist away from Hunter's Bend, which is much more compact and elegant.
I personally disagree with your claim of elegance and compactness.
To my eye, the #1425A Riggers bend has a nice symmetry and essentially has the same footprint (ie volume/size) as your '69 bend'.
The 'X' version of #1425A has quite a nice symmetrical form too.

...

Some additional comments:
The '69' bend that you presented is created from 2 loop that are inter-linked.
The loop on the left side has S (left-handed) chirality and the loop on the right side has Z (right-handed) chirality.
The tails are oriented 180 degrees in opposition.

The concept of '69' is actually arbitrary.
For example, the loop on the left side could be Z (right-handed) and the loop on the right side could be S (left-handed); and it would still be a '69'.
My point is that '69' doesn't really tell you anything meaningful because it fails to inform what the starting loop chirality is.

You can try this yourself... tie the '69' bend but reverse the chirality of the loops.

Once you understand loop chirality - and which way the tails are oriented with respect to each other - you can create a whole cohort of 'bends'.

yChan has attempted to do this but, his vast array of 'bends' are presented  in a way that is very difficult to comprehend - its 'big data' that has not been ordered and structured in a way that is easy to understand. I urge you to have a look at all of yChan's work and you will see that he has indeed attempted to catalog every possible combination of 'bends' built from inter-linked or superposed loops. If he would re-structure his work into something more understandable - it could serve as a very useful catalog of all the combinations of bends formed from inter-linked and superposed loops. I would assume that your '69' bend is listed somewhere in yChan's database - but due to the 'big data' syndrome - its likely 'lost in translation'.

yChan might be willing to locate it and show you where it is located in his work...



« Last Edit: August 26, 2019, 11:45:10 PM by agent_smith »

robsteele

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Re: New bend?
« Reply #10 on: August 27, 2019, 12:34:56 AM »
Great information agent_smith!  Thanks!

siriuso

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Re: New bend?
« Reply #11 on: August 27, 2019, 02:06:25 PM »
Hi all,

It is Mark's Bend. You may refer to

"My Other Tying Methods of Some Known Knots" :

https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/1C8vtR72jJp9NjHiOR_qA9336We11Jt4g?usp=sharing

Happy Knotting
yChan
« Last Edit: August 27, 2019, 02:08:20 PM by siriuso »