Author Topic: Second order retucked/enhanced harness midline loops and the equivalentEOL loops  (Read 5035 times)

tsik_lestat

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Ashley claims that the harness 1050 loop is not secure under all circumstances and it is not recommended as a midline loop.There are a few ways to secure the harness loop and avoid those slippage issues reported by Ashley, making it a safer and more practical knot.This could be done by retucking the harness loop, which is illustrated for comparison reasons to the left of the photos 1,2 below, from the side where the red arrow is pointing to.The nipping component, is being kept as simple as possible and the collar component is a marlin spike and a figure eight, forming the complete knots shown in photos 1,2 accordingly(right side).These loops could also be tied as end of line loops, keeping the nipping structure in this simple form.

However, there is a more interesting approach shown in photos 3,4 which i think deserves the title enhanced harness midline loop.The knot consists of interwoven crossing knots where the collar and nipping components are equivalent to the unknot and the two ends are facing opposite directions.I believe this is an EEL loopknot and the reverse midline loop is illustrared in photo 4 with the corresponding simple harness loop.Considering this midline loop as the base knot, there are several ways of creating some decent end of line loops,loaded in different ways.There is some difficulty to dress the knot especially in stiff ropes, but once tied right,it is a rock solid,jam resistant,stable midline loop loaded from any of the three directions.I guess there are a lot of ways of tying it and one of them is shown in my next reply.
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tsik_lestat

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Focusing on the midline loops shown in my previous reply, here is a method of tying the enhanced harness loop.
First you form a loop, a bight and second loop as shown in photo 1 from left to right.Then the right loop is placed on the left loop as shown in photo 2 and the bight passes like a toggle between the loops with the following pattern~up,down,up,down.If the left loop is placed on the right and the same steps are followed, then the reverse loop is created.
This is a simple easy to remember method of tying and once mastered it can be tied, dressed and inspected in a rather quick way.
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agent_smith

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An interesting 'enhancement' to #1050.
But I'm not entirely sure if this offers anything beyond the performance capability of #1053 Butterfly...

tsik_lestat

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Thank you Mark!

I believe there are not so many midline loops in the knotting toolbox are there? :)

The 1053 butterfly, is indeed a stable secure midline loop, but i hear that it is not very easy to untie it,especially after beiing eye loaded,having some blocking issues.

However, an interesting feature of the EHL(enhanced harness loop) midline loop, are the 180 degrees U turns of the SP or the SE (depending on the form of the knot being used) in the core nub.This component,prevents the collar from closing too much and block, when the knot is heavily loaded and one can remove/loosen it rather easily, releasing then the pressure from the SP.

A good question might be, if such a component provides a means of constructing stable, jam resistant,  end of line loops(bowlines or not).I believe it does and to align with the title of this tread, i illustrate four different loading profiles of this knot ,as end termination loops(i am afraid there is no room for back sides or mirrors),which is another advantage of the EHL loop.

The first knot which is TIB, can be tied starting from a TIB 1010 bowline(tail inside eye and tucked back through the bight component of the bowline) and then retuck the eye through the SE to create the bottle/jug sling, which is topologically equivalent to this knot (this is a well known method of tying the bottle sling).Once the bottle sling is being formed, then with two flips downwards of the nipping loop of the bowline  and the upper bight encircling the eye of the bottle sling, we create the final knot.It is an easy transform and i repeat it is just two flips far from the bottle sling.

The same stands for the second knot,also TIB, but the difference is that you start from a reversed TIB bowline and then create a reverse bottle sling(if i may use the term), following the same steps.

The other two knots have different geometry ,but they retain their jam resistance with good ring loading profiles, as end termination loops.I tie them using crossing knots but i guess it is not the only way!!!
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agent_smith

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Quote
I believe there are not so many midline loops in the knotting toolbox are there?

I apply a strict definition of what a 'Mid-line TIB knot is... and yes, in this context, there aren't so many.

Characteristics:
1. Can be tied without access to either end (ie 'TIB'); and
2. Remain stable and secure when bi-axially loaded (through loaded).

For example, the #1047 F8 is 'TIB' but, it is not stable when through loaded.
The #1047 F8 therefore fails to be categorised as Mid-line TIB, and instead is categorised as a fixed eye (loop) knot.

The concept of bi-axial loading refers to a state where load is aligned from SPart to SPart in a straight line (axially).
« Last Edit: May 10, 2019, 06:01:26 AM by agent_smith »

tsik_lestat

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The artillery, man-harness loop, was primarily designed and used for eye loading applications and i think it is not suitable for bi-axially loading.The loop presented here, as an improvement,supports multidirectional loading and meets the characteristics of your strict definition of a midline loop.It even can be loaded as an end of line loop as i've showed in my previous reply,unlike F8,which you correctly stated and illustrated that it fails to be categorised as a midline loop.Few knots can do both,Span loop comes to mind along with Xarax great work on this loop.

Since you have mentioned the butterfly which can be tied as a bend, I thought to apply this technique to the EHL midline loop and create an asymmetrical bend.The tying method is the same,the eye is just replaced by the two ends, so there is no need of posting a photo about this structure.However, to overcome the weaknesses of an asymmetrical bend,(if there are any) and turning it to a symmetrical one, i ended up with this beautifull ,symmetrical, Zeppelin-like,Hugo bend A, tied by Xarax,presented in the following thread,in reply 50, https://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=4090.45, using the famous 69 method of tying :). I have not seen so far the transformation of this bend to a loop,illustrated in the following photos,which is a compact Zeppelin-like loop with the benefit of having no overhands in its structure,but non-TIB.I see some connections to all these knots and it should be expected, since they share some resemblance to each other.

Edit .....

1: An indicative asymmetrical bend that corresponds to the Enhanced harness loop has been added, as mentioned previously (third image).

2: If we shrink the eye of the EHL2 end termination loop by pulling each strand, starting from the on going eye leg, a noose or a one wrap hitch is being created, as shown in fourth image. The resulting knot, which can also be tied independently in the end method, retains the tibness and the jam resistance properties.
« Last Edit: January 30, 2020, 08:01:35 PM by tsik_lestat »
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tsik_lestat

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One other application of the main knot presented in this thread, would be  a double Spanish-like, either end loadable (EEL), bowline knot.

Verily, we should firstly tie an EHL midline loop following the previous steps, with a quite large eye, and then fold it over the  main nub, as illustated in first image. The next step, is to pull the two eye legs of the initial eye, as the black arrows indicate, and create the two loops by working out all the slack and cinching the knot.

It looks good enough for an anchor system if tied in the end method, but this is probably the easiest method of tying in the middle of the rope, same as in double lineman's knot that corresponds to the single butterfly 1053 midline loop.
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SS369

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Hi tsik_lestat.

"It looks good enough for an anchor system if tied in the end method."

Please explain this further.

SS

tsik_lestat

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Sorry for the incorrect wording SS369, what i meant was that it looks good enough for an anchor system generally. But if you have not access to the fixed anchor points (like two tall trees for instance), you have to tie the knot in the end method, which is not difficult afterall, at least for me.

However, the easiest method to tie it in the bight, i believe it is the one described previously, at least until now.
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DerekSmith

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I like the EHL, it is indeed a nice stable knot and so far seems to be jam resistant with its large 'fold away' collar.

Here is another method to form it :-

Tie a slipped OH, then with the slipped end, cast a half hitch over the loop...

The only thing to watch out for is that the OH and the HH must be opposite chirality.

tsik_lestat

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Hello Derek, it's nice to hear from you again.

Here is another method to form it :-

Tie a slipped OH, then with the slipped end, cast a half hitch over the loop...

The only thing to watch out for is that the OH and the HH must be opposite chirality.

I can not justify a slipped overhand's mere existence in the structure, unless it is used as a starting point, as part of a tib tying process to form a TIB 1010 bowline, or a harness loop. Anyhow, and provided that i am no good in " words can work situations" , it would be very helpful to provide a diagram/image of your method. I have made available previously a quite simplified method of tying. Note that we need to tie it in the middle of the rope, without having access to either ends, so a TIB tying method is essential, at least for the midline instances.

The feasibility of multidirectional loading, along with the option of various loading profiles and the ease of untying, make up a versatile knot, whose origin might be traced to a TIB 1010 Bowline, according to the following knotting sequence transitions.....

1. TIB 1010 bowline ==> bottle sling ==> EHL1 end of line ==> EHL midline.

2. TIB reversed bowline ==> reversed bottle sling ==> EHL2 end of line ==> EHL midline.

3. Tying directly a 1050 midline harness and retuck it to get the midline EHL.

4. TIB tying method shown at reply#1 to form the midline EHL.

All the aforementioned methods/transforms are TIB tying methods, they utilize no ends for EHL midline formation.
« Last Edit: May 04, 2020, 11:44:24 AM by tsik_lestat »
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DerekSmith

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Hi tsik_lestat,

I see now that I have tied a different knot to the one you have posted.

I had assumed you had passed the loop bight through the center of the two loops, but you did not...  you passed the bight loop over, under, over, under - forming a stunningly stable construction.  I am even more impressed by this knot than I was by the one I thought you were tying.

I am intrigued - how did you invent it?

Derek
« Last Edit: May 05, 2020, 10:02:32 PM by DerekSmith »

siriuso

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Hi tsik_lestat

I think you have got the best midline loop. The EHL is better than Alpine Buttterfly Knot, for it is more secure and non jamming.

The tying method is the same as ABOK#1142 Jar Sling Knot. With a different dressing, EHL is using the Sling's handle as the EHL loop, where as the ABK is using its center nub to hold object.

Happy Knotting
yChan


agent_smith

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Hello tsik_lestat,

I see that you breathed new life into this thread at reply #6 .
Looking specifically at your double eye Bowline presentation - just clarifying if this a claim of originality? I presume yes?
Its definitely an improvement over other double eye Bowlines that employ a communicating segment to enable adjustment of the size of the eyes.

As with #1087 Spanish Bowline, the communicating segment is the collar.
In your presentation, it is more efficient because it is indeed EEL.
In comparison, the Spanish Bowline is not suitable for 'EEL' loading profiles.

The outgoing eye legs from each eye are adjacent, rather than splayed as with #1087.
As with any knot, with practice, should be fairly easy to tie from memory.

I haven't read all of your other posts in detail but, are you also suggesting that this Bowline is bi-axially loadable (ie through loadable from SPart-to-SPart)?

Note: You are likely aware that there is a known vulnerability with #1080 Bowline on-a-bight when used for anchor systems.
I have not fully investigated if your presentation has a similar vulnerability...
Link: https://ukcaving.com/board/index.php?topic=14602.0
Its an amusing video with not a lot of scientific rigor....but, you can see the vulnerability the presenter is trying to warn of.

tsik_lestat

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@ DerekSmith

Hi tsik_lestat,

I see now that I have tied a different knot to the one I have posted.

I had assumed you had passed the loop bight through the center of the two loops, but you did not...  you passed the bight loop over, under, over, under - forming a stunningly stable construction.  I am even more impressed by this knot than I was by the one I thought you were tying.

I am intrigued - how did you invent it?

Derek

The EHL1 end of line eye knot, was the first instance i had tied, when i was fiddling with crossing knot nipping structures, about a year and a half ago. Then, it was delivered directly to Xarax, and after some evaluation/discussion we had, it found its way to publicity, gaining almost instantly, the green light for posting.

I have feautured its versatility, by gradually tying and presenting, most of its corresponding equivalent profiles. Indeed, it is a very stable construction that resists to jamming, and all one has to do, is to press sequentially the two collars to release the pressure and untie the knot.

I guess, i won't be able to get it over with some other potential equivalent invention  :( :).

@Siriuso

Hi tsik_lestat

I think you have got the best midline loop. The EHL is better than Alpine Buttterfly Knot, for it is more secure and non jamming.

The tying method is the same as ABOK#1142 Jar Sling Knot. With a different dressing, EHL is using the Sling's handle as the EHL loop, where as the ABK is using its center nub to hold object.

Happy Knotting
yChan

it certainly is a good knot, but let us not forget that the alpine butterfly has intensively been tested and used in the field, without reported failures so far. The OP's structure features no such background, but i guess, time will tell if it will gain more attention. The omens are promising :).

Trully, the EHL functions more effectively when eye loaded, using whatever profile, with no jamming issues. Believe it or not, i had not seen its relation to the jug knot in the first place.

I understand you have your own TIB method of tying this knot. Feel free to post it, for further evaluation, it would be much appreciated.

@Agent_smith

Hello tsik_lestat,

I see that you breathed new life into this thread at reply #6 .
Looking specifically at your double eye Bowline presentation - just clarifying if this a claim of originality? I presume yes?
Its definitely an improvement over other double eye Bowlines that employ a communicating segment to enable adjustment of the size of the eyes.

As with #1087 Spanish Bowline, the communicating segment is the collar.
In your presentation, it is more efficient because it is indeed EEL.
In comparison, the Spanish Bowline is not suitable for 'EEL' loading profiles.

The outgoing eye legs from each eye are adjacent, rather than splayed as with #1087.
As with any knot, with practice, should be fairly easy to tie from memory.

I haven't read all of your other posts in detail but, are you also suggesting that this Bowline is bi-axially loadable (ie through loadable from SPart-to-SPart)?

Note: You are likely aware that there is a known vulnerability with #1080 Bowline on-a-bight when used for anchor systems.
I have not fully investigated if your presentation has a similar vulnerability...
Link: https://ukcaving.com/board/index.php?topic=14602.0
Its an amusing video with not a lot of scientific rigor....but, you can see the vulnerability the presenter is trying to warn of.

You might say, that there was some sort of refreshment, by planting this double tangle into the thread. i don't think that it has been tied before, but you never know. The fixed eye segments of the knot, are certainly an improvement, compared to the communicating portuguese-like double eye anchor systems.

It has some complexity when tied in the end method,  but practice usually improves knotting skills for anyone willing to go for it, as you correctly point out.

I do not recommend it for biaxial loading. Why bother, when there is always the flexibility of forming a powerfull midline geometrical profile, with a configuration of an opposite two end direction, that can be bi-axially or tri-axially loaded?

Thanks for sharing this video, i had no time to study it, but i shall do it later on. I wouldn't have thought to use a bowline on a bight, for an anchor system, plus i have never tested the OP's double loop for such vulnerabilities.

I guess we know the drill, perform intensive tests before using any knot.

I provide some visual reviveness injection, with some midline stuff, analyzed in this thread, in better quality i hope  :). The knots are in a loose form, and their eye segments, have been kept purposely small, in order to demonstrate all the nub details (overs and unders).
« Last Edit: May 05, 2020, 07:26:24 PM by tsik_lestat »
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