Author Topic: Crossing knot based loops(new?or new virtual pseudo bowlines?)  (Read 1309 times)

tsik_lestat

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Crossing knot based loops(new?or new virtual pseudo bowlines?)
« on: February 07, 2019, 11:53:44 PM »
When i first tied this loopknot, i was not sure if it qualifies as a bowline.The returning WE does not pass through the loop that first came in,(photo 1) but through the loop next to it.I am not really sure if this structure fits in the virtual (pseudo) bowline category, but one thing is certain, that there is a crossing knot nipping structure.

When i saw Mike Sweeney's pseudo bowline, i realised that both knots share some resemblance up to a certain point.The difference is that this loopknot has an extra tuck to the left(photo 1),which provides an interesting lock,enhancing safety and it is not created with the adjustable technique Mike Sweeney is presenting in his video, which is quite interesting, but with a rather straight forward method.

There are a few ways to turn these knots TIB, with the cost of extra complexity(extra maneuver) and photo 3 illustrates such an approach.The WE dives through the loop next to it and comes back under itself,exiting parallel with the SE through the collar.This TIB knot belongs to the category of knots where the first line of defence is weaker than the second line(the collar).I am not sure if this is a disadvantage and i would care for a second opinion about this approach.However, i am working with structures that have stronger first line of defence than the second line(collar), which prevents segments of rope to remain loose during heavy loading.

These knots shown here,have their mirrors if someone  starts the tying process with a different crossing knot(mirror of the one being used here) and follow similar steps!!!!
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Dan_Lehman

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Re: Crossing knot based loops(new?or new virtual pseudo bowlines?)
« Reply #1 on: February 10, 2019, 09:22:24 PM »
... but one thing is certain, that there is a crossing knot nipping structure.
Actually, no : the characteristic of the crossing knot
IMO is that it collars itself; this knot doesn't.

I don't like how all the knotting is without help to the
rather sharply bend SPart, which turns around the
(mere) two diameters more as though they are in
line and just one at the turn apex.  There are some
ways to put another tuck through here.  But, then,
there are other knots that do this ... .


Thanks,
--dl*
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tsik_lestat

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Re: Crossing knot based loops(new?or new virtual pseudo bowlines?)
« Reply #2 on: February 12, 2019, 02:00:31 AM »
I think you have a point there Dan, meaning that this is not the classic shaped-8 crossing knot, which is immediately recognisable.However, i believe this is another crossing knot where the SE divide the nipping structure in two sub-loops and collars the eye leg of this very nipping component.On the other hand,the knotting of this simple collar structure and the sub-nipping loops,works pretty well by my opinion as a stabilization and constriction factor of the whole structure, as compared with other classic approaches shown in the photos below.
Such simple easy to tie knots, deserve further investigation and there are indeed a few tucks that could also work well here.
For comparison reasons, a virtual TIB bowline with a yosemite finish(or a figure eight collar structure) is shown in the following photos where the WE returns through the same nipping loop that it first came in and comes back through the collar with a yosemite tie off.
I believe this has been tied by other people before, i have just added a yosemite touch.
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Dan_Lehman

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Re: Crossing knot based loops(new?or new virtual pseudo bowlines?)
« Reply #3 on: February 15, 2019, 07:42:00 PM »
I think you have a point there Dan,
meaning that this is not the classic shaped-8 crossing knot,
which is immediately recognisable.
???

"Crossing knot" to me is the structure in which the
material crosses over (e.g.) an object,
turns back around it to then turn over itself,
and then goes out now UNDER the object
and beyond; if making an eye knot, it would
return so to give substance to the (what would
have been imagined/anticipated) object *crossed*.
And, so, the SPart bears strongly into the turn
over itself.
This knot doesn't have this structure.

Xarax has presented a plethora of such things,
here:  https://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=3467.0
--including some in reverse orientation to what
I verbally sketch above.


--dl*
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tsik_lestat

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Re: Crossing knot based loops(new?or new virtual pseudo bowlines?)
« Reply #4 on: October 09, 2020, 03:24:00 PM »
What we present here, is a Samisen TIB bowline, with a Yosemite Ampersand tie off. This class of "Samisen" bowlines, had been developed by Xarax, who was the first to present a Tib profile of the Dines knot capsized structure, where the running end is tucked back through the collar.

Link : https://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=4883.msg31900#msg31900

Yet, there is another tucking option, to implement on the basic capsized structure, in a Yosemite Ampersand fashion, as shown in the attached images, which retains the Tibness property, while enhancing the nipping action with the so called three strand constriction effect, originated by the ampersand maneuver. I've got to thank Xarax twice as the Original Samisen creator on one hand, and as an Ampersand Janus-like locking mechanism inventor on the other hand, with Alan Lee of course as co-creator. I am sure they both have tried such variations before, but i guess it is hard to beat their prototype "Ampersand bowline"  :).

Link : https://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=4877.0

I would call attention to achieve this final dressing state, but once tied and cinched assiduously, it remains stable and secure. Ι would even attempt to induce a locked Yosemite maneuver, inspired by Alan Lee knot, as shown in fourth image, if the tibness, or the loading of the knot with extra overhands, was not a primary issue  :).
« Last Edit: October 09, 2020, 03:26:47 PM by tsik_lestat »
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tsik_lestat

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Re: Crossing knot based loops(new?or new virtual pseudo bowlines?)
« Reply #5 on: October 14, 2020, 02:34:34 PM »
The implementation of an Ampersand/Fontus, Janus-like locking mechanisms on a Single Karash virtual bowline structure, generates two healthy bowlinesque configurations, as shown in the attached images.

Both variations, appear to be stable, secure and workable in a practical sense, while the Ampersandian knot features an additional Tibness property.
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