Author Topic: End loops, tight or loose, why when and how  (Read 312 times)

blgentry

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End loops, tight or loose, why when and how
« on: January 17, 2019, 04:08:22 PM »
Hello,

I'm new to knot tying but have been enjoying learning about it for a few months.  As I've learned things like the bowline, perfection loop, anchor hitch, and scaffold hitch, I've wondered about loop knots that cinch up tight to the object, as opposed to fixed loops that stay the same size and are usually not tight to the object, but have a gap of some size.

Initially I was trying to find a knot that I could cinch up really tight to an object, but also secure it so that it could not become looser with shaking, tugging, etc.  When I found no knots like this, I started tying strangle knots and things like that to secure my slip knot into a "won't slip" knot.

But then it hit me:  Maybe this knot doesn't exist because it has no purpose.  Which made me realize, I don't know why I would want a tightly fastened loop versus a fixed loop.  For really basic applications, like securing a load to a truck with a trucker's hitch, the loop could be tight or loose.  It wouldn't matter as long as it stays tied.

But maybe there are other uses for tightly fastened loops that I'm not aware of.  Or more importantly, places where a tightly fastened loop is actually bad.

So I'm here to ask about end loop application concepts.  Where to use loose, where to use tight.  ...and any other discussion that might be relevant.  For example, "ring loading" which puts stress on the loop as if you were trying to pull the ring apart with your hands.  I've noticed that this seems to "roll" the perfection loop as well as the Zeppelin loop.  ...and I don't know if that kind of "ring loading" is common, and/or if those knots are good or bad in that application.

Thanks for reading.

Brian.

roo

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Re: End loops, tight or loose, why when and how
« Reply #1 on: January 17, 2019, 04:31:07 PM »
Hello,

I'm new to knot tying but have been enjoying learning about it for a few months.  As I've learned things like the bowline, perfection loop, anchor hitch, and scaffold hitch, I've wondered about loop knots that cinch up tight to the object, as opposed to fixed loops that stay the same size and are usually not tight to the object, but have a gap of some size.

Initially I was trying to find a knot that I could cinch up really tight to an object, but also secure it so that it could not become looser with shaking, tugging, etc.  When I found no knots like this, I started tying strangle knots and things like that to secure my slip knot into a "won't slip" knot.

But then it hit me:  Maybe this knot doesn't exist because it has no purpose.  Which made me realize, I don't know why I would want a tightly fastened loop versus a fixed loop.  For really basic applications, like securing a load to a truck with a trucker's hitch, the loop could be tight or loose.  It wouldn't matter as long as it stays tied.

But maybe there are other uses for tightly fastened loops that I'm not aware of.  Or more importantly, places where a tightly fastened loop is actually bad.

So I'm here to ask about end loop application concepts.  Where to use loose, where to use tight.  ...and any other discussion that might be relevant.  For example, "ring loading" which puts stress on the loop as if you were trying to pull the ring apart with your hands.  I've noticed that this seems to "roll" the perfection loop as well as the Zeppelin loop.  ...and I don't know if that kind of "ring loading" is common, and/or if those knots are good or bad in that application.

Thanks for reading.

Brian.

There are some advantages to knots or hitches that shrink down to the object:

1.  They can be more secure as the knot form isn't free to flog around as much.
2.  They can take up less space.
3.  They can use less rope for the better security mentioned in point 1.
4.  They can maintain their position on a post or spar and not slip down.

There are also some advantages to fixed loops that don't shrink down:

1.  They can freely run the length of an object if needed.
2.  They are easily reused without re-tying.
3.  They tend to be be better for expanding forces that would unshrink most hitches.
4.  They maintain a set leg angle for an application since the knot body doesn't slide around.

And I could go on in both categories, but that's an introduction.

You might have to elaborate on what kind of knot you are looking for and the application, but a Gnat Hitch may be useful to you over some of the alternatives you listed:

https://notableknotindex.webs.com/gnathitch.html

The ring loading you describe doesn't often come up for most people, but despite minor deformation, the Zeppelin Loop is one of the better loops for such loading.
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blgentry

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Re: End loops, tight or loose, why when and how
« Reply #2 on: January 18, 2019, 12:42:23 AM »
Thanks for the response.  That kind of general info is the direction I was looking for.  I do not have any particular application in mind.  Rather, I'm trying to learn about end loop applications and which ones work well for which scenarios.  For example, if you were going to hoist something and you tied a loop around an eye or a pole, which loop would be good?  Tight or loose?

I did a couple of experiments today by tying a loop and then pulling the free end through the loop, forming a slip loop, which I put around a tree.  This was done with paracord.  I put quite a lot of force on it, leaning my body weight into it.  The rope held fine.  The loops I tried all held just fine.  As I expected really.  The surprise was in how one of the loops jammed really hard.  The perfection loop is apparently pretty "jammy".  I think I read that before, but now I know for sure!  I had to use a pair of pliers to loosen it and at one point was sure I'd have to cut it off.

On the other hand the standard old bowline was only a little bit difficult to get untied.  It jammed a little, but no real problem just using my fingers.  The Zeppelin loop was the champ though.  Just like a Zeppelin bend, it untied with very little effort, which was really pretty amazing compared to how hard the perfection loop had jammed.  Anyway, I guess that's not what this thread is about; just telling a story.

Brian.

DerekSmith

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Re: End loops, tight or loose, why when and how
« Reply #3 on: January 23, 2019, 01:19:06 PM »
The best of both worlds...

Try this - tie a Bowline.  Then fold it back over itself to make it into a slipped bwl. (alternatively, pass the SP around the object to be gripped and make a bwl around the SP).

Now you have a fixed loop which cannot tighten and will remain easy to untie, and a slipped loop which will respond to load by tightening and gripping its 'load' but will not jam.  This construction is (was) often used in the arbourist industry - easy to tie, unyielding grip, easy to untie.

Cordage is the 'machine', while knots are the fixings.

Derek

blgentry

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Re: End loops, tight or loose, why when and how
« Reply #4 on: January 24, 2019, 03:35:49 AM »
I think you are describing what I have seen named a running bowline.  Like you said, it's a self tightening slip knot, which uses the bowline as the looped part.

I've actually been using that a lot.  It seems very "low tech" in that it loses it's grip when you release tension.  But it's surely simple and can even be tied when you don't have access to the other end of the rope, which is neat.  In other things, simple is often best.  Maybe here too.

I thought of a particular use case I was curious about.  To be honest, someone asked this somewhere else and I wondered about it.  The question asked was what knot to use for a grappling hook.  Which made me wonder, when a person is going to climb something, suspended from some kind of metal eye with a rope attached, do you want a fixed loop, or a snug one?  My instinct says that a tight loop (snug) is correct.  But then I think a fixed loop might be better because of the freedom of motion.

See this is why I asked the original question:  Because I have no idea what considerations go into something like this.  Hopefully I'll gain some understanding of the factors involved at some point.

Thanks,

Brian.

roo

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Re: End loops, tight or loose, why when and how
« Reply #5 on: January 24, 2019, 03:57:47 AM »
The question asked was what knot to use for a grappling hook.  Which made me wonder, when a person is going to climb something, suspended from some kind of metal eye with a rope attached, do you want a fixed loop, or a snug one?  My instinct says that a tight loop (snug) is correct.  But then I think a fixed loop might be better because of the freedom of motion.
Another possible consideration in such an application is the advantage of not having an open loop that could catch on protrusions.
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