Author Topic: variation of the highwaymans hitch...New knot?  (Read 1432 times)

tmayhew

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variation of the highwaymans hitch...New knot?
« on: January 24, 2019, 09:26:01 PM »
I have tried to find the name of this knot.  It is a variation of the highwaymans hitch.  Please watch the video and let me know if you have ever come across this hitch. I think it may be a new knot
Thank you 
Todd

https://photos.app.goo.gl/7Sw2S8DRXKrRMAS18

tmayhew

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Re: variation of the highwaymans hitch...New knot?
« Reply #1 on: January 25, 2019, 06:43:57 PM »
I suggest this hitch be called the BULB hitch.  Bight, Underhand Loop, Bight.  The acronym describes how to tie the hitch.

Yablonsky

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Re: variation of the highwaymans hitch...New knot?
« Reply #2 on: January 25, 2019, 08:22:48 PM »
Looks similar if not the same as the Tumble Hitch

https://www.animatedknots.com/tumble/index.php

tmayhew

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Re: variation of the highwaymans hitch...New knot?
« Reply #3 on: January 25, 2019, 11:40:16 PM »
I agree it looks similar because it is a hitch but there is a distinct difference.  Please tie them both and Im sure you will agree.  Thanks for posting you feedback

roo

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Re: variation of the highwaymans hitch...New knot?
« Reply #4 on: January 26, 2019, 07:00:19 AM »
I have tried to find the name of this knot.  It is a variation of the highwaymans hitch.  Please watch the video and let me know if you have ever come across this hitch. I think it may be a new knot
Thank you 
Todd

https://photos.app.goo.gl/7Sw2S8DRXKrRMAS18
I was trying this out, and sometimes I got a capsizing event with cyclical loading and it may have something to do with how I snugged up the hitch.  I'll have to look into it more later, but I'm running short on time right now.
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roo

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Re: variation of the highwaymans hitch...New knot?
« Reply #5 on: January 27, 2019, 05:02:26 AM »
I have tried to find the name of this knot.  It is a variation of the highwaymans hitch.  Please watch the video and let me know if you have ever come across this hitch. I think it may be a new knot
Thank you 
Todd

https://photos.app.goo.gl/7Sw2S8DRXKrRMAS18
I was trying this out, and sometimes I got a capsizing event with cyclical loading and it may have something to do with how I snugged up the hitch.  I'll have to look into it more later, but I'm running short on time right now.
Trying again, I had a capsizing event when the line were not kept in contact with the object.  When tied in a hurry, I could see this happening, as it's not always easy to get the hitch to snug up the way you want. 

That said, this hitch is very interesting and I will probably keep looking at what makes it tick.
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tmayhew

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Re: variation of the highwaymans hitch...New knot?
« Reply #6 on: January 28, 2019, 05:11:20 PM »
Hi Roo

Thank you for taking the time to review this hitch.  I suggest dressing the knot in this fashion.  A bight has a working and a standing part.  Pull the standing end of the last bight that is put through the loop first. That will snug the hitch and it will make it more secure.

Cheers

Todd 
 

tmayhew

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Re: variation of the highwaymans hitch...New knot?
« Reply #7 on: January 28, 2019, 06:49:44 PM »
HI Roo.
I made a video to clarify how to dress this knot.  Hope it helps with the capsizing issue you are having.

https://photos.app.goo.gl/h49EaG7kfuFBqdnP9

roo

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Re: variation of the highwaymans hitch...New knot?
« Reply #8 on: January 28, 2019, 10:30:38 PM »
HI Roo.
I made a video to clarify how to dress this knot.  Hope it helps with the capsizing issue you are having.

https://photos.app.goo.gl/h49EaG7kfuFBqdnP9

Thanks for the follow-up.  That tip does help with getting rid of excess slack.  I was just trying to work through all the ways the average user might employ it.

At its heart, it looks like a bell-ringer's loop (half sheepshank) with a bight of the the free end tucked into the free bight of the bell-ringer's loop to provide extra stability.  Perhaps that is what you were alluding to with your "half-sheepshank" comment in your first video.

I can understand wanting to draw it up to the object like a hitch to prevent capsizing, but I wouldn't argue against classifying it as a fixed loop, either.  It reminds me of my attempts to create a loop that can be released while under load, even though that is not your aim here.
« Last Edit: January 28, 2019, 10:45:02 PM by roo »
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Dan_Lehman

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Re: variation of the highwaymans hitch...New knot?
« Reply #9 on: January 29, 2019, 02:11:55 AM »
I have tried to find the name of this knot.  It is a variation of the highwayman's hitch.
Please watch the video and let me know if you have ever come across this hitch.
I think it may be a new knot
Thank you 
Todd

https://photos.app.goo.gl/7Sw2S8DRXKrRMAS18
Todd, yes, we've come across it.  While it might
look appealing in the circumstances you show,
if you try it say as a slip-free hitch with heavier
rope, you'll find that that stabilizing half-hitch
/nipping-turn (you cite the sheepshank, rightly;
Roo notes bell-ringer's loop) can do a bit MORE
stabilizing than you, a hundred feet down, pulling
futilely hoping for release, want !!   :o
YMMV per conditions.

The general tactic of having the heavily loaded
SPart bight into not the slip-tuck but the "frame*
(my terms) through which the slip-bight runs
is good --puts less force against the latter,
and resists capsizing much better.

Still, Grog for his Animated Knots site found my
initial"tumble hitch" per roo (I'd no real name for it)
revision/improvement on the popularly promulgated
highwayman's h. to be yet dubious to his testing.
Hmmm; must more "YMMV" being seen.

(Re "initial", this was taking the slip-bight up
front (per Roo's presentation) directly up through
the frame, not around behind & through.  The shown
version is perhaps more sure, with force pressing
the slip-bight against the object, but then one has
the extra drawing of line around the object and
some friction in that.  Again, YMMV per conditions;
often it should be assessable on tying whether the
simpler version will suffice.)

I see that Wikipedia has put in you unwanted (by me)
half-hitch nipping turn on their rendition of "tumble
hitch", and so will likely fire off a complaint on that.
Really, I have found that nipping turn to nip allll too
well, for the purpose intended, at loosening time!

Good knotting!
--dl*
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Dan_Lehman

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Re: variation of the highwaymans hitch...New knot?
« Reply #10 on: January 29, 2019, 02:19:02 AM »
As I remarked above
Quote
I see that Wikipedia has put in you unwanted (by me)
half-hitch nipping turn on their rendition of "tumble
hitch", and so will likely fire off a complaint on that.
Really, I have found that nipping turn to nip allll too
well, for the purpose intended, at loosening time!

I've posted a correction to Wikipedia.  But I don't have
corrected images ... and so only left a parenthetical remark
about a need for that in what remains.  (They do seem to
know about Roo's & Grog's sites; not sure who thought
to improve upon the knot as presented there --alas.

Quote
The '''tumble hitch''' is a "slip-free", quick-release draw loop [[knot]]
used for temporarily securing a [[rope]] such that it can be released
completely from the hitched object (i.e., no rope will remain around
it upon release --it has "slipped free". The tumble hitch is tied in the bight.

NB: The version shown in this page as of 2019-01-28 is NOT the version
presented on the Notable Knots site.  The key difference is that here,
one is (wrongly) instructed to "Cross a bight near the working part
over the standing part" instead of simply putting a bight UNcrossed
over the first-positioned bight.  The importance is that the turn shown
here will often constrict and nip the enclosed bight --as e.g. done in
a sheepshank & bell-ringer's loop--, defeating (full) release; someone
who just rappelled in canyoneering, which sometimes such knots are used,
would be frustrated in trying to pull the knot free.  Also, this mistaken
presentation I'm redressing says that the working end is near the hitch;
this might well NOT be the case!  And the images unfortunately show
a quite short tail/working-end dangling >>on the wrong side of the object
(which would prevent "slipping free" from it)<< !

The design goal for this knot was to redress the vulnerability of the
well-known "highwayman's hitch" to capsize the slip bight; this known
knot put full load upon this bight which toggled the knot, and especially
in flexible cordage it could fold this toggling part and capsize, possibly
spill the knot.  The initial, simple revision was to change the positions
of the placed bights of the highwayman's hitch so that the 2nd-placed
bight would go INSIDE the initial one (which was in the to-be-heavily
loaded standing part), and then the "slip bight" would go through this
2nd bight and so be only indirectly pressured by the loading --making
for both a more stable knot and one more easily released.  The Notable
Knots side, as well as Grog's Animated Knots, give a further version
wherein the slip bight is take not directly up through but rather around
the standing part then to be tucked in the opposite direction through
that 2nd-formed bight; doing so will see this slip bight pressed into the
object, offering perhaps some surer stability (but at a cost of incurring
more friction when pulling to release it --back around the object).


I simply excised the Wikipedia text about release under tension
(which it has asserted as doable); there can be --and anyone
abseiling with such an anchor knot darn well understand risks!--,
but OTOH there can be a lot of resistance when loaded, too.
And of course, how forceful is the pull to release?  Maybe one
has the tail tied to a truck, and yes it WILL release!   ;D


--dl*
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tmayhew

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Re: variation of the highwaymans hitch...New knot?
« Reply #11 on: January 29, 2019, 04:59:34 PM »
Hi Dan,
Thank you so much for your response and input. You stated yes we've come across it. Could you direct me to where you came across it? That's the reason I came to IGKT is to find more information about this hitch.  The rest of your post seemed to deal with politics surrounding the tumble hitch.  I'd like to stick to the subject at hand...getting information about the hitch I presented. The tumble hitch is a great hitch but a completely different subject.

Dan_Lehman

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Re: variation of the highwaymans hitch...New knot?
« Reply #12 on: January 30, 2019, 10:53:39 PM »
Hi Dan,
...  You stated yes we've come across it.
Could you direct me to where you came across it?
I came across it in my hands, playing around with
slip-free hitches --and, i.p., in the simpler version
of the "Tumble hitch" which I described : which
is the knot you present but without twisting the
SPart's bight to put over the first-placed bight
(the "frame", per my terms).

It has been now a decade and half since Roo & I had
discussions about these things, sharing a concern about
the vulnerability of the promulgated highwayman's h.
and trying to warn readers/potential-users of that.
Maybe there's a thread or two on this forum of such
chatter?  And I'd think that the initial replacement
recommended by me was for the simple re-ordering
of the H.H's laying on of bights to get the better
knot, and then for some reason it was felt that
even that c/should be bettered into the version
now named "tumble" ?!  (which suffers from the
need to draw the release line around the object)
--foggy recall, I'm afraid.

As for the practical significance/value of slip-free
hitches, I'm unsure : the *need* for slipping free
comes where? --vs. maybe some preference for
it vs. having to pull a line from around something.
(Too easily I can imagine "oops" moments on slipping
free, which were the line at least yet around the
object, one might be in less trouble.  Abseiling comes
to mind re this!)


--dl*
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DerekSmith

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Re: variation of the highwaymans hitch...New knot?
« Reply #13 on: February 02, 2019, 06:05:27 PM »
What a lovely, and very effective, variation.

Did you develop it or simply 'discover' it?

If you developed it, then you have my respect, because this simple variation transforms the value of this knot tremendously.

I like it and will spend a little time studying its form and function.

Derek

tmayhew

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Re: variation of the highwaymans hitch...New knot?
« Reply #14 on: February 04, 2019, 05:55:37 PM »
Hi Derek,
Thank you for your kind comment.  I am a nerd with knots. I was practicing with paracord at my office.  I was tying truckers hitches across my desk from drawer pull to drawer pull.  I liked the combination of using a quick release hitch with the truckers hitch because all the knots release easily.  Unfortunately when I tightened the truckers hitch on one side, the highwaymans hitch capsized on the other side.  It simply came to me to to use a component of the truckers hitch with the highwaymans hitch. So I put the loop over the first bight and the new hitch was born.  I have to admit I stumbled upon it just playing with paracord. 

I have scoured the internet knot sites for this hitch and I couldn't find it.  So I came to IGKT to get more information.  Im glad you like the Hitch.  I really hope that it is recognized as a new hitch.