Author Topic: Weird knot  (Read 502 times)

alanleeknots

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Weird knot
« on: December 27, 2018, 03:07:18 AM »
Hi All,
         Here is a knot have to dress it this way, very weird, convoluted and complicated knot.
          Only offer to those whose have the interests. 謝謝 alanleeknots.

DerekSmith

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Re: Weird knot
« Reply #1 on: December 28, 2018, 11:54:57 AM »
What an interesting construction.  An XCarrick, a nipping Helix and a Bight component.

The arrangement is good in that the load in the SP comes straight into the stabilised nipping helix which binds the WE from the final bight component.

Excellent stability, even from ring loading and single leg loading, and totally non jamming in sash cord, paracord and satin cord.  Interestingly, it did not slip, even in satin cord at 90% MBS

Of course, the downside for just about any non jamming knot and a particular weakness of my favourite non jamming loopknot - the Carrick Loop, they are all deadly susceptible to flogging when unloaded.  They all demand a load to maintain their compliance.

All in all, an interesting three component knot, although probably not a practical knot due to the complexity of tying, when it could be replaced by the relatively easy to tie Carrick Loopknot.

Thanks for bringing it to us.

Derek

Dan_Lehman

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Re: Weird knot
« Reply #2 on: December 28, 2018, 10:55:09 PM »
Interestingly, it did not slip, even in satin cord at 90% MBS
More than merely interesting, if indeed the knot's
strength in ... is 90%!
(As opposed to the stated tensile strength being
well conservative.)


--dl*
====

alanleeknots

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Re: Weird knot
« Reply #3 on: December 29, 2018, 09:46:37 AM »
Hi All,
         Derek, Dan Thanks for your replied.   
         I have quick test on this loop here, it work good, will do more test.
         The in coming eye leg have a half hitch sit around the standing part, will take away some pulling strength reach to the nipping loop,
         The out going side nipping loop leg doesn't pull hard again standing part, that mean the nipping loop was sitting on a very soft
         cushion here, I think this loop have height MBS too.    謝謝 alanleeknots.

tsik_lestat

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Re: Weird knot
« Reply #4 on: December 29, 2018, 05:05:57 PM »
When i first saw this nipping component in your first presentation, i had the sense that it looked familiar to me.Indeed, there is a structure among my efforts trying to construct a bowline loop with the exact same kind of nip.I did not pay so much attention to it then, because there is an overhand lying down there, until now that i see you are using it!

That said, i would care to see the impact of heavy load to this closed form helix nipping structure, which incorporates an overhand perhaps in its non primary flat "bad" form but still existing there.I am not really sure if these knots qualify as bowlines as not being PET or TIB, but if they are jam resistant as being mentioned earlier, i would certainly retrieve my knot.

It could be used as a collar component and it is not so weird after all!!!!

alanleeknots

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Re: Weird knot
« Reply #5 on: December 30, 2018, 02:48:37 AM »
Hi All,
         Overhand knot as a nipping structure most likely to jam, Unless the set up is right.
         This is what I am trying explore here, rig up some counter force to break down the function of Overhand knot,
          and trying to make it jam resistance loop.   謝謝 alanleeknots.

DerekSmith

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Re: Weird knot
« Reply #6 on: December 30, 2018, 02:46:41 PM »
Interestingly, it did not slip, even in satin cord at 90% MBS
More than merely interesting, if indeed the knot's
strength in ... is 90%!
(As opposed to the stated tensile strength being
well conservative.)
--dl*
====

That is 90% MBS of the knot, not the cord.

I do not have a load cell, so I use Strain (knot / cord extension) at knot breaking point, then load the knot to 90% of the Strain at failure.

Perhaps I should use the term MBSK to denote it is the knot failure, not the cord.

I do not bother with a Strain Gauge as I am not interested in the failure point, only in the performance characteristics of the knot under load.

Derek

tsik_lestat

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Re: Weird knot
« Reply #7 on: December 31, 2018, 02:37:34 PM »
Based on Alan Lee's first instance of his knots presented in this thread, i have tied two knots using this very nipping structure as collar components, which is illustrated in photo 1.

Doing so, i have redirected the complexity to the collar level, as the nipping structure absorbs the most rope tension of load forces during linear loading, trying to keep it as simple as possible(a crossing knot in this case) and reducing the jamming odds.

The first knot(uppermost photos 2,3,4), is the reverse of the one i was referring to in my previous reply, a crossing knot based loop with the left collar component of photo1.

The second knot(lower photos 2,3,4), is an attempt to further secure the 206 based eye knot first presented here, using the right collar component of photo 1.

Both knots have a decent look,resistant to ring loading, as the returning eye leg mechanism acts like a blocker and offers a second level of constriction preventing capsizing or slippage issues of WE.

Some may see carrick components in these knots, and they do have a point there, but i see them as convoluted crossing hitches perpendicular to each other, with the final tucking of the WE forming an overhand and stabilizing the whole structure in both knots.

Happy new year to ALL!!! :)


alanleeknots

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Re: Weird knot
« Reply #8 on: January 01, 2019, 01:42:59 AM »
Hi All,
         tsik_lestat, Your knots are very complicated. I do tie many, many weird, convoluted and complicated knots before,
          99% of my knots are junks.
           This is how I learn how to tie knots, have to put your hand on and tie it, feel it, after all the hard work,
              Now I know I am a better man than yesterday.
        tsik_lestat Keep trying, one of these days you will get there.
                 Here just to share with you, how I would like the knot. 謝謝 alanleeknots.
 
         

DerekSmith

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Re: Weird knot
« Reply #9 on: January 01, 2019, 10:51:18 AM »
I believe that the quality and performance of a knot is not so much dictated by the components that form it, but by how those components are put to work and how they support each other in the final working knot.  Sometimes functionality is lost at the expense of imagined security and 'balance'.

In the OP knot -



We have the functionality of a Bowline enhanced by the SP Loop Leg (SPLL) taking a stabilising Half Hitch around the SP before going out to the loop.

One of the major weaknesses of the Bowline is distortion of the Nipping Helix by load from the SP Loop Leg - Dan has shown this very effectively in the many images of distorted Bowlines he has published in 'Knots in the Wild' - in this simple modification though, distorting load from the SPLL is prevented from attacking and distorting the Nipping Helix by the presence of the Half Hitch around the SP.

The cost however is quite high, as adding in that HH, effectively adds in an Overhand which will be left on the cord after releasing the loop.

Derek

tsik_lestat

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Re: Weird knot
« Reply #10 on: January 01, 2019, 02:31:27 PM »
Hi Alan, i think i have already admitted some complexity which i perfectly cleared that it is safer to reside in the collar structure level.Even so, i have already found a few ways to overcome this "supposed" complexity in these knots (which one of them is TIB), but that's not for now, maybe later in another thread.

Junk knots are not news to me, i have already plenty of them.But have in mind, that if a new knot is to be posted,(let's say 1 of 30), it is double checked and inspected for its functionality not only by me  ;).

Nevertheless, i value and trust your opinion based on your enormous experience in knotting, and every criticism is more than welcome by everyone!

Thank you for your comments and this knot suggestion!!