Author Topic: A crossing knot based loop with a girth hitch collar structure  (Read 1414 times)

tsik_lestat

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A crossing knot based loop with a girth hitch collar structure
« on: December 11, 2018, 09:55:11 PM »
This crossing based loop structure comprise two components, a crossing hitch(others might call this a carrick component or a 206 crossing hitch) and a girth hitch collar formed on the returning eye leg.

The first stage of the tying process is to create this crossing hitch by entering with the WE up through the initial loop,turning right down from the on-going eye leg,up from the returning eye leg,down from Spart and finally tucking the WE back down through the crossing hitch and itself, forming the final girth hitch and completing the second stage of the tying process(illustrated in photo 3 the loosen form of the knot).

The structure is rock solid to ring loading,as the on-going eye leg is blocked effectively from deforming by the nub.As for jam resistance,i think the two theoretically non-jamming components being used, might result in a non jammable structure after being heavy loaded.

The knot also has a clean image involving parallel stings running through the central nub,which provides ease of inspection.

There are several potential structures that could be created using this technique(16 in total), depending on which crossing hitch is being used,how one might enter in this crossing hitch(up or down through the initial loop) and which direction is being used(left or right) to create the final girth hitch.
Photo 4 illustrates such a potential structure with the WE inside the eye knot.

I wonder if anyone has tried anything similar before and might share his thoughts and findings about these structures!!!!

Dan_Lehman

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Re: A crossing knot based loop with a girth hitch collar structure
« Reply #1 on: December 13, 2018, 06:26:59 PM »
This crossing based loop structure comprise two components, a crossing hitch(others might call this a carrick component or a 206 crossing hitch) and a girth hitch collar formed on the returning eye leg.
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I wonder if anyone has tried anything similar before and might share his thoughts and findings about these structures!!!!
Yes, last year I sought to see about running a "turNip"
--vice your crossing knot-- through various common
hitches, for the heck of it, to see what looked half-decent.
(And currently there's one such structure using the
constrictor among my tied-up "play" ropes.)

.:.  There are many ways to effect a knot.  Some of these
might make simple things to recommend for general work,
of components familiar and easily brought together for atask.

(But realize that with some 300 (3-0-0) *new* eye knots
fiddled by me in the last couple years (and including things
tied longer ago but awaiting my pen'd illustration/record),
I'm not so eager to find more.  As Hitchhiker's Guide... robot
Marvin once lamented --when travel-mates sought to arose
his enthusiasm with "a whole new life opening up in front of you",
"Oh, no, not another one!".   ;D   )


--dl*
====
« Last Edit: December 13, 2018, 06:30:36 PM by Dan_Lehman »

tsik_lestat

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Re: A crossing knot based loop with a girth hitch collar structure
« Reply #2 on: December 14, 2018, 03:54:40 PM »
Hi dan thanks for feedback!!

If you mean a constrictor inside a crossing hitch,i'd like to see such a structure illustrated!Having been trying such variations before, my only concerns are, how this structure would come undone,since the constrictor grips like a "devil" especially after being heavy loaded.

Yes,familiar components could easily be brought together for a task,having a decent clean form,but i don't have the whole picture yet how this convolution would behave in the test field in terms of deformation,jamming e.t.c!!

I understand that most people in here, have done o lot of work in designing and creating new knots,hoping that a close structure would reside somewhere in their knotting archives.

Considering that there are some good knots(even the half decent) hiding amongst fuzzy tangles,waiting for a ray of light beamed upon them,i am willing to take this very knotting journey although i know that the routes are laid out with disappointments most of the time!!

After all,it is said that the route is by far more important than the final destination isn't it ? 8)

DerekSmith

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Re: A crossing knot based loop with a girth hitch collar structure
« Reply #3 on: December 14, 2018, 08:35:21 PM »
Hi tsik_lestat,

Good to see you are still enjoying the noble art of 'Knot bothering'.

This is a nice little creation and it is a pleasure to find you using the concept of 'components' - in this case, what I have been calling an xCarrick, stabilised by the Girth Hitch.  It is a lovely knot, and you are quite right, it is highly jam resistant in many cordages.

I wonder, have you realised that it inherits this jam resistance because you have tied a Carrick Loop knot with two amendments.

The first is that you have used an xCarrick component in place of the Carrick component.  The second is that you have tied the second Carrick component, then converted it to a girth hitch by a tuck of the WE under the collar of the Carrick component.

A Girth Hitch is a Carrick component with the WE tucked under the collar.

So, yes, you have tied an excellent knot, probably the best knot of all - the Carrick Loop knot, plus two amendments.

But the question is, do those amendments improve on the basic Carrick loopknot?

I think probably the final WE tuck is not functional for two reasons - first the Carrick without this tuck is totally functional, but perhaps of greater relevance is the fact that the function of the Carrick component collar is virtually without any form of constriction.  If you make the knot and load it heavily, you will see that the WE can easily be withdrawn from the collar as it is not held or restrained to any great degree.  Its only real function is one of tidiness and aesthetics.

The other amendment was your choice of the xCarrick, but as this is in turn stabilising and is stabilised by the second Carrick component, we have to ask - was any benefit gained from the x part of the component?

Again, because the Carrick loopknot performs perfectly well without the x part, then almost certainly it is adding nothing of significance to the knot performance.  Indeed, if you retie your knot using a Carrick component and a Girth hitch, you will see it performs exactly the same.  Against this is the negative that the xCarrick leaves an awkward OH knot in the cord as you take the knot apart.

Thank you for bringing us this knot and please don't take my comments as being critical - it has offered an interesting exercise in considering it from the perspective of functional components and the contribution of 'amendments'.

Derek

tsik_lestat

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Re: A crossing knot based loop with a girth hitch collar structure
« Reply #4 on: December 15, 2018, 04:17:03 PM »
Hi Derek thanks for the reply!!

Indeed, i have borrowed your concept of components for this case, in order to gain a better understanding of the knot function and it's good to know that you confirm its jam resistance in many cordages.

Yes, i already knew that i have tied the carrick, because i use crossing hitches to form all possible carricks rather than the straight forward method following the carrick pattern, so it was quite obvious to me.

The choice of the X-carrick was a matter of aesthetics, it looked more decent to my eyes, but you are right as all sixteen versions have almost the same function and i have just picked one of all(or two).

As for the use of the girth hitch collar, i agree with you in part but not completely.When i tried to stretch the knot, i noticed that the main friction was provided mostly by the carrick section, but i do believe that the collar offers a second level of protection if you carefully cinch the nub.

I really should thank you for your valuable remarks for two reasons.Firstly,it is quite obvious that you have mastered the carrick and you provide a very interesting theory of understanding the concept of carrick components and their interaction, which brings me to the second reason,the realization of a knot with a new amendment(not one of the 16), with a girth hitch collar playing a more active role to the overall constriction and stability of the knot.

If one ties and cinch this knot,he will soon realize the function of the collar and its contribution to the overall friction, because it is directly connected with the on-going eye leg.

I was unable to realize this structure with all four crossing hitches but with two of them and i think it's definitely a carrick, inheriting its jam resistance again!!!

siriuso

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Re: A crossing knot based loop with a girth hitch collar structure
« Reply #5 on: December 15, 2018, 05:51:11 PM »
Hi tsik_lestat,

I like your knot by using Crossing Knot as a component. But in your last photo presented above (more active collar knot), I do not see any Crossing Knot as a component. Is it different from the 16 variations or a new knot not using Crossing Knot?

yChan
« Last Edit: December 15, 2018, 05:52:33 PM by siriuso »

tsik_lestat

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Re: A crossing knot based loop with a girth hitch collar structure
« Reply #6 on: December 15, 2018, 06:37:14 PM »
Hi yChan thanks for feedback!
 
No you are right it is not one of the 16!if you tie one of them and this new one you will notice the differences.I confirm the use of a crossing hitch, and you can notice that, if you look more closely to the left section of the photo of the loosen form of the knot,which is formed by the Spart and the returning eye leg!

Actually, it is the crossing hitch i used for the loop first presented here, rotated 90 degrees anticlockwise.

But if you want to tie this,i suggest that you first form this crossing hitch(without rotation) and then follow the carrick pattern going up -down-up-down-up!The final move is to dive down through the two loops that have been created there and drag the WE towards the inner section of the eye knot in order to  become parallel with the returning eye leg!

That's it!I hope that helps!
Thanks a lot!!!!

siriuso

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Re: A crossing knot based loop with a girth hitch collar structure
« Reply #7 on: December 15, 2018, 08:56:44 PM »
Hi tsik_lestat,

Will you post your knot again by using a thicker rope in order to show clear picture of the configuration. And in step to show how to finish it. It is always appreciated by every one here. Thanks.

yChan

tsik_lestat

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Re: A crossing knot based loop with a girth hitch collar structure
« Reply #8 on: December 16, 2018, 01:15:22 AM »
yChan

You are giving me the chance to make a correction at this point.The last knot is not actually a crossing knot with a girth hitch collar structure. It is a crossing knot based loop with an overhand collar structure.

So you were right from the beginning it has nothing to do with the previous structures.Also, under closer inspection, with the final tucking of the WE, the nip of the carrick  performed by the returning eye leg is lost, but there is enough friction from the nipping structure itself.

It certainly is a strange creation with a bit more complex nipping structure but with a more simplified collar structure, it looks decent and as much as i have strained it, the collar opens rather easily!!!I don't know yet how this might react under extreme heavy load and that needs to be further investigated!!

If you are still interested in this knot ,i will come back with more findings(i hope) or decent photos!

alanleeknots

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Re: A crossing knot based loop with a girth hitch collar structure
« Reply #9 on: December 17, 2018, 04:44:23 AM »
Hi All.
         tsik_lestat Your last knot is fine, should handed heavy weight very well, because one side of the main collar leg
         is so long, also the one rope diameter nipping loop stick tie to the incoming leg, prevent it from capsize.
         Yes, it is a strange and complicate knot to tie.
         Well, keep tying, and learn from it, and fine tune it. with hard work I have faith you can create a good knot.

         I had tied two loops with this nipping structure, Please see the links below.
         I am not sure what to call it, Crossing coil nipping loop? or Double coil nipping loop? or some other name?

         http://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=4706.0
         https://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=5383.45        謝謝 alanleeknots. 

tsik_lestat

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Re: A crossing knot based loop with a girth hitch collar structure
« Reply #10 on: December 17, 2018, 09:42:05 PM »
Hi Alan thanks for the reply!

It is good to know that you are approving the last knot as a potential non-jamming structure under heavy load.I usually tend to avoid those "lethal" overhands, but it appears that in this case is working just fine as a collar structure.

I have tied both of your knots presented in the links above and i see that you are using the same crossing hitch as mine.

In your first knot, the one with the blue rope(non-slipped), your nipping structure, is this very crossing hitch rotated 180 degrees anticlockwise, forming two loops in that way on the returning eye leg and you end up with a crossing knot based bowline loop with the final tuck of the WE under those two loops.

In your second knot, the one you call it Lee loop, i see the same crossing hitch being used again, this time rotated 90 degrees anticlockwise as in mine structure,although i have a different finish forming this very overhand collar.Your final tucking of the WE, is really a smart move, providing enough constriction from three rope diameter and keeping the nip of the Carrick at the same time.It was a bit difficult to untie this in its non slipped form, but you have rather tested it and i assume that it works fine.

As for its name, i am not sure if it is a pretzel, because i see no preformed pretzel nipping structure.For me, it is definitely a crossing knot based loop perhaps with a carrick amendment.

Nevertheless, i would like to know your opinion for the first loop presented in this thread, the one with the girth hitch collar structure, which have a more decent and clean form!!
 
Thanks a lot!!!

alanleeknots

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Re: A crossing knot based loop with a girth hitch collar structure
« Reply #11 on: December 18, 2018, 05:16:41 AM »
Hi All. 
         tsik_lestat, your first knot and variation is fine too, after heavy load very easy to untie and no jamming,
         but very sloppy and not retain its form.
         Fourth picture, I doesn't go by how many degrees to rotate the nipping, I use my left hand to rotate the nipping loop
         till the way it looks, and then just bring in the incoming eye to do the knot that I wanted to tie.
         謝謝 alanleeknots.

         

alanleeknots

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Re: A crossing knot based loop with a girth hitch collar structure
« Reply #12 on: December 18, 2018, 05:19:15 AM »
         After all these, I too decide to create one too, I have a quick test on this loop,
         she is jam resistant, easy to untie after heavy load, and retain its form very well
         謝謝 alanleeknots.

siriuso

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Re: A crossing knot based loop with a girth hitch collar structure
« Reply #13 on: December 18, 2018, 09:52:10 AM »
Hi tsik_lestat, Alan and all

Both your knots that you are just posted here, are similar to my Mocha Loop Knot (tightened). My knot also starts with Crossing Knot.

Alan, will you test my knot?

yChan


tsik_lestat

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Re: A crossing knot based loop with a girth hitch collar structure
« Reply #14 on: December 18, 2018, 09:59:06 PM »
Hi Alan thank you for the results and the photos of the tests!

I was aware of the deforming issues induced by the crossing factor in all crossing knots.The question is how much deformation is acceptable and which variation has better results in this field!

Another interesting creation of yours!!I admire your ability to produce new knots out of nothing, whenever you want! Keep them coming!!!!

I was thinking about incorporating a girth hitch into a marlin spike hitch!Knowing (from your tests) that we have two convoluted non-jamming components,this might produce a good result, since the marlin spike, as a more closed form nipping structure might retain its initial form!Yes, indeed i have tied it, it looks good, a little bulky i guess, but could be another variation of a marlin spike based loop!