Author Topic: The right knot for a snug loop  (Read 1154 times)

Lace

  • New Member
  • *
  • Posts: 4
The right knot for a snug loop
« on: November 02, 2018, 04:45:48 PM »
I'm looking for the right knot for suspending an object by making a snug loop around it and using this loop to hold it.

Once the object is suspended some empty space will appear in the loop because the upwards force will pull it away from the object. Being on the upper side the knot won't rest against a surface so it must not be a binding knot.

What bend or loop knots can be used to make a snug loop? The knots I've tried always leave slack in the loop around the object because all the ends need pulling for tightening the knot. Note rope is needed for the loop only and no standing end of any knot will bear load.

DerekSmith

  • IGKT Member
  • Sr. Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1518
  • Knot Botherer
    • ALbion Alliance
Re: The right knot for a snug loop
« Reply #1 on: November 02, 2018, 08:14:02 PM »
Would the KC hitch be any use for your application?

roo

  • Sr. Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1779
    • The Notable Knot Index
Re: The right knot for a snug loop
« Reply #2 on: November 02, 2018, 09:35:24 PM »
I'm looking for the right knot for suspending an object by making a snug loop around it and using this loop to hold it.

Once the object is suspended some empty space will appear in the loop because the upwards force will pull it away from the object. Being on the upper side the knot won't rest against a surface so it must not be a binding knot.

What bend or loop knots can be used to make a snug loop? The knots I've tried always leave slack in the loop around the object because all the ends need pulling for tightening the knot. Note rope is needed for the loop only and no standing end of any knot will bear load.

If the object is being suspended, the standing part will bear load by definition.  Maybe you can describe your application in detail and why you need what you're describing.

In the meantime, you could look at hitches such as:
https://notableknotindex.webs.com/gnathitch.html
« Last Edit: November 02, 2018, 11:50:57 PM by roo »
If you wish to add a troll to your ignore list, click "Profile" then "Buddies/Ignore List".


Harold Kahl

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 73
Re: The right knot for a snug loop
« Reply #3 on: November 04, 2018, 03:21:48 AM »
If the object is a smooth cylinder, you could use a pipe hitch or icicle hitch. If it has a neck, you could use a noose, such as scaffold knot. if it has a neck and you want it to hang straight up and down, you could use a jug sling.

Twine

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 92
Re: The right knot for a snug loop
« Reply #4 on: November 04, 2018, 05:08:17 PM »
I'm looking for the right knot for suspending an object by making a snug loop around it and using this loop to hold it.

Once the object is suspended some empty space will appear in the loop because the upwards force will pull it away from the object. Being on the upper side the knot won't rest against a surface so it must not be a binding knot.

What bend or loop knots can be used to make a snug loop? The knots I've tried always leave slack in the loop around the object because all the ends need pulling for tightening the knot. Note rope is needed for the loop only and no standing end of any knot will bear load.

You know the clove hitch? It's not really a snug hitch by itself, but if you secure the tail with a stopper knot (an ordinary overhand knot on the tail is usually sufficient) then the clove hitch is transformed into a very secure and snug hitch.

So what you do is you just make a clove hitch and then you tie a knot on the tail. Pull on the standing part so the stopper knot gets pulled closed to the clove hitch and then you have a very snug hitch.

If your rope is very unelastic it may turn out that it's not quite as snug as you would like. In that case, instead of a stoppered clove hitch you could tie a rolling hitch and stopper it in the same way.

Good luck!
"Simplicity is the ultimate sophistication" - Leonardo da Vinci

Lace

  • New Member
  • *
  • Posts: 4
Re: The right knot for a snug loop
« Reply #5 on: November 06, 2018, 07:45:25 PM »
Thanks for the help. I can't find the KC hitch. Some of these hitches are mentioned almost nowhere which makes me wonder where a good place to look for knots would be.

Both ends of the loop rope will be free. So there won't be a standing part as such but I used the term because loop and hitch knots have at least in name a clearly defined standing part. What wording would be more correct?

Not using the standing part makes me think a loop or hitch knot may not make much sense. It must tighten to a snug loop and also hold securely in mid-air.

For suspension the loop may be grabbed with a hook or a different rope etc. A reasonably snug loop can't slide over knobs. The suspending force won't run parallel but perpendicular to the loop's axis. This rules out the icicle hitch.

roo

  • Sr. Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1779
    • The Notable Knot Index
Re: The right knot for a snug loop
« Reply #6 on: November 06, 2018, 09:00:46 PM »
For suspension the loop may be grabbed with a hook or a different rope etc. [...]

Why must the hook be placed against the object instead of tying into the standing part of a hitch?
If you wish to add a troll to your ignore list, click "Profile" then "Buddies/Ignore List".


Sweeney

  • Global Moderator
  • Sr. Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 975
Re: The right knot for a snug loop
« Reply #7 on: November 07, 2018, 01:55:27 PM »
Not using the standing part makes me think a loop or hitch knot may not make much sense. It must tighten to a snug loop and also hold securely in mid-air.

Not knowing how heavy the object being suspended is or how thick you want the rope makes this problem more difficult. Have you thought of a grommet made in situ around your object? Probably pretty awkward to do but not impossible and you will have a very strong endless sling.

Sweeney

DerekSmith

  • IGKT Member
  • Sr. Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1518
  • Knot Botherer
    • ALbion Alliance
Re: The right knot for a snug loop
« Reply #8 on: November 07, 2018, 04:33:47 PM »

Dan_Lehman

  • Sr. Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3727
Re: The right knot for a snug loop
« Reply #9 on: November 08, 2018, 07:46:50 PM »
Once the object is suspended some empty space will appear in the loop because the upwards force will pull it away from the object. Being on the upper side the knot won't rest against a surface so it must not be a binding knot.
It would be good to see what you have in mind,
but a quick idea is to get your snugness with a
constrictor knot whose ends rise up into some
eye knot.  Then you do NOT have any gap in your
snugness, you have a good grip on the object,
and ... it's all fairly easily done/undone.

Another, general tactic for snugness-gripping as you
seem to want is to have an eye knot that feeds its
eye-sides to either side into a structure like the
scaffold hitch --getting a quais 2:1 pull on a bight
and so snugging the surrounding material on the
object.  At this moment, e.g., I have a piece of
webbing surrounding a protective bag on a large
bubblewrapped book, to carry.  Hmmm, let me
paint the general idea as this:
1) small eye knot in one end, comes up on Side-A
about 3/4 to top of object;
2) piece runs from eye down beneath object and up
Side-B, where a mid-line eye knot is formed also about
3/4 of object height;
3) piece runs from this mid-line eye (to be an anchor
point) over top of object and down through first eye
qua sheave and now up long enough to be my handle [ <--"now", not "not" ]
and then down tied to the mid-line eye.

.:.  Holding by the handle will put a sort of 2:1 pulling
on the Side-A eye, down through it and back over the
top and down, snugging my material to grip the object.

--kinda similar to my big Ikea bag which has on each
side both long and short straps :: put each long strap
across the top of stuff (I just salvaged foam paper,
bubblewrap, heavy plastic tarp, and newspaper (NYTimes))
and through the other side's small strap and now lift
by the long ends --they snug down across the top,
pulling sides towards each other, compressing my load
of *stuff*.


--dl*
====
« Last Edit: November 09, 2018, 06:54:05 PM by Dan_Lehman »

Twine

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 92
Re: The right knot for a snug loop
« Reply #10 on: November 09, 2018, 08:39:16 AM »
I'm looking for the right knot for suspending an object by making a snug loop around it and using this loop to hold it.

Once the object is suspended some empty space will appear in the loop because the upwards force will pull it away from the object. Being on the upper side the knot won't rest against a surface so it must not be a binding knot.

What bend or loop knots can be used to make a snug loop? The knots I've tried always leave slack in the loop around the object because all the ends need pulling for tightening the knot. Note rope is needed for the loop only and no standing end of any knot will bear load.

I think my previous answer was based on my misunderstanding of your post. I've been thinking a bit since then, and I suppose what you want is to tie a string around some irregularly shaped object and make that string as tense as possible so it won't slip from its place. What tricked me was your use of the word "snug", which, to me suggests something like the constrictor, the groundline hitch, or the strangle knot. But alas, if you have a snug hitch around some object it's not possible to get a hook in between the hitch and the object. So that was not what you wanted, right?

I guess what would be best for your purpose is some kind of  Versatackle:

You take your string around your object and then you use the ends of your string to tie the Versatackle. This is how: In one end of the string you make a fixed eye of some kind (say a Bowline), and at a convenient distance from the other end you make a fixed eye on the bight (let's say you use the Alpine Butterfly Loop for that). Take the unknotted end through the Bowline, then take it through the Butterfly, then take it through the Bowline again, and then take it through the Butterfly again. Pull on the loose end. The loop around your object gets tense. The tension can actually become so great that you can play it like a guitar string. Once you get it tense enough, secure the end with a couple of half hitches around the bunch of string you now have between the Butterfly and the Bowline. I'm attaching an image that might clarify my meaning.

Now, if your object is very small a versatackle might be quite inconvenient. If the object is small and soft I'd recommend some kind of packer's knot. If it is small and hard I suggest you use thread instead of string and have it go round your object in several loops, because then the elasticity of the thread will help keep it tense.

Please tell me if this helped. I hope I haven't misunderstood your question again.
"Simplicity is the ultimate sophistication" - Leonardo da Vinci

Dan_Lehman

  • Sr. Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3727
Re: The right knot for a snug loop
« Reply #11 on: November 09, 2018, 07:02:32 PM »
Now, if your object is very small a versatackle might be quite inconvenient.
Rather, impossible.

And you've caused me to re-read the OP and see that
I have misunderstood the rope problem --i.p., my solution
doesn't follow the stipulation that "no SPart will bear load"
(though maybe this requirement can be omitted).

Well, I still ask for further details, but a binder knot
(a) could work even if it's a knot that needs pressure
against the object --as does the constrictor--,
by just putting that knotted point away from the point
of holding the object, which is expected to pull the
cordage a bit away from it (which frankly might NOT
happen if the binder is set tight!).
(b) there are binders such as the Gleipnir that hold
independent of pressure at the knotted part.


Thanks,
--dl*
====

Twine

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 92
Re: The right knot for a snug loop
« Reply #12 on: November 10, 2018, 12:51:42 AM »
Now, if your object is very small a versatackle might be quite inconvenient.
Rather, impossible.
Sure, it would be impossible for me, but perhaps not for someone who is into lace work and is equipped with crochet needles and such tools. But I am pretty sure it would be inconvenient even for such a person.
And you've caused me to re-read the OP and see that
I have misunderstood the rope problem --i.p., my solution
doesn't follow the stipulation that "no SPart will bear load"
(though maybe this requirement can be omitted).
Same here. And I am still not sure that I've correctly understood the question. Like you, I would be pleased to know more about the situation.
Quote
Well, I still ask for further details, but a binder knot
(a) could work even if it's a knot that needs pressure
against the object --as does the constrictor--,
by just putting that knotted point away from the point
of holding the object, which is expected to pull the
cordage a bit away from it (which frankly might NOT
happen if the binder is set tight!).
(b) there are binders such as the Gleipnir that hold
independent of pressure at the knotted part.


Thanks,
--dl*
====

Hm, yes, you have good point about the Gleipnir structure. I should at least have thought of that one. But it has a few disadvantages, for instance, I've seen it come loose when I had used it to strap a box to my bicyle. Perhaps I should have secured the Gleipnir with a couple of halfhitches, but somehow that experience made me suspicious about the general security of the Gleipnir. And since Lace (the OP) wants to use the binder loop for suspending something, I automatically disregarded all knots that I feel may be even the slightest insecure. What if someone walks under the load? Also, Gleipnir will never be as tight as a loop made with a Versatackle.

I wonder if Lace is trying to suspend a canoe. Just a guess, but it would fit with the few facts divulged in the question, I think.
"Simplicity is the ultimate sophistication" - Leonardo da Vinci

DerekSmith

  • IGKT Member
  • Sr. Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1518
  • Knot Botherer
    • ALbion Alliance
Re: The right knot for a snug loop
« Reply #13 on: November 10, 2018, 04:08:46 PM »
Thanks for the clarification Lace.  Following the example set by the others, and rereading your OP, I see that I have not answered your needs and that the KC hitch is not suitable for this job - it requires load to applied on the SP to maintain the knot and the grip.

I think the suggestion by Dan, to consider the Gleipner is likely to be the best bet.  Both ends are simply working ends, but the knot needs tension in its twin loops in order to sustain its working grip of the knot hitch component on its two working ends.  This tension normally comes from the springiness of the bundle, but if the bundle is rigid, then it can also be supplied by the elasticity of the cord used.  In fact, using bungee cord works well for the Gleipner.

It was featured recently in 'Knots in the Wild' when I found it used to contain a bundle of broom handles, although they were not suspended by their loops.  It  was started when one of our posters brought the new knot too us here - http://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=1449.0

Hope this helps.

Derek

Lace

  • New Member
  • *
  • Posts: 4
Re: The right knot for a snug loop
« Reply #14 on: November 11, 2018, 10:06:08 PM »
Why must the hook be placed against the object instead of tying into the standing part of a hitch?
A good point that solves my problem. I made it harder than it has to be.

A warm thanks to everyone for engaging with interest. Some knots you have given are not widely documented. Most sources include and repeat only the same well known knots. It's frustrating to find a new knot that makes a good impression but has barely been used tested or documented so you would be hard-pressed to rely on it. If you know of more good sources or have any tips for finding quality knots please don't hesitate to spread awareness.