Author Topic: Can anyone spot the difference between these two almost "identical" knots?  (Read 1188 times)

DerekSmith

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Re: Can anyone spot the difference between these two almost "identical" knots?
« Reply #15 on: October 22, 2018, 03:02:11 PM »
per Derek:
Quote
I note though that in your testing you found no weakness in this knot.

I would strongly disagree with this remark since it implies something that I never stated.
Did you actually read what I wrote?


Well - did you find any weakness in the knot?

I can only hope that you read what I have written and that you do not embellish my words with assumed implications.

Derek

DerekSmith

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Re: Can anyone spot the difference between these two almost "identical" knots?
« Reply #16 on: October 22, 2018, 03:42:42 PM »
However, if the knot is proved to be a part of the skull/crossbone world, that's fine with me.(would not prevent me from exploring).

tsik_lestat, you have a great attitude - I am sure you are going to be an asset to the knotting world and I look forward to your future 'offerings'.

Quote
I admit i did not pay attention to this carrick component, although i have a clue about tying a carrick loop.

I have to admit, since I found an easy method for tying the Carrick loopknot, it has become my alltime favourite loopknot.  I use the Chinese button knot method to make the Josephine mat (wrap, pinch, under and tuck), then a simple tug and I have my goto loopknot, the Carrick.

Derek

tsik_lestat

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Re: Can anyone spot the difference between these two almost "identical" knots?
« Reply #17 on: October 22, 2018, 06:19:03 PM »
It appears that there are some double versions of this eye knot.

1)Doubling the returning tail?Not of great use i suppose, unless the tail would come back tucked through this double collar, providing some friction.

2)Doubling the on going eye leg?(two turns inside the crossing hitch) This could provide some sort of lock during ring loading.

3)Doubling the turns of the Spart?(double front collar). The third case sounds very interesting, thus it would provide more friction to the tail and less deformation during ring loading, but needs careful dressing!Furthermore, it looks good and won't jam at least tested by hands.

knotsaver

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Re: Can anyone spot the difference between these two almost "identical" knots?
« Reply #18 on: October 25, 2018, 05:06:19 PM »
Hi tsik_lestat,
(this was noticed by Xarax)
your knot has the nub of a Tugboat B: "it is" a Tugboat B loaded otherwise, I mean (I can quote Dan)
"There is a simple relation between these two ::
cut the returning eye leg of one and attach it back to its tail
--to get the other !!"

For the Tugboat B you can look at
https://daveroot.neocities.org/knots/Knots_SingleLoops.html
13 . Perfection Loop
or you can find a rediscovery by enhaut here
http://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=5628.0

Ciao,
s.
« Last Edit: October 25, 2018, 05:07:51 PM by knotsaver »

tsik_lestat

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Re: Can anyone spot the difference between these two almost "identical" knots?
« Reply #19 on: October 25, 2018, 10:36:36 PM »
Hi knotsaver
Yes you are quite right.An insightful remark from xarax!!!
I didn't know about this knot, putting this in my arsenal right away!Thanks for the links too.

What do you think about the double version  anyway?Does it  enhance safety?

knotsaver

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Re: Can anyone spot the difference between these two almost "identical" knots?
« Reply #20 on: October 26, 2018, 06:19:46 PM »
What do you think about the double version  anyway?Does it  enhance safety?

Hello tsik_lestat,
if I've understood correctly

Quote
1)Doubling the returning tail?Not of great use i suppose, unless the tail would come back tucked through this double collar, providing some friction.

this should be the corresponding of the double Tugboat B, am I right? I mean you tie another turn with the returning eye leg. I think this could perform well (not so well if ring loaded).

Quote
2)Doubling the on going eye leg?(two turns inside the crossing hitch) This could provide some sort of lock during ring loading.
I don't like this version, even if the tail is well locked the nub is distorted and  you could want to retuck the tail parallel to the SPart, but this is dangerous! I think it doesn't jam and that it could not perform well if ring loaded.

Quote
3)Doubling the turns of the Spart?(double front collar). The third case sounds very interesting, thus it would provide more friction to the tail and less deformation during ring loading, but needs careful dressing!Furthermore, it looks good and won't jam at least tested by hands.

this is a better version (the best?)(do you mean doubling the SPart around the ongoing eye leg, don't you?) I like it.

--
Have you tied the corresponding BoaB? it is interesting...try tying it.
Try tying the corresponding ABoK #1034 1/2 too.

Ciao,
s.
« Last Edit: October 26, 2018, 06:57:34 PM by knotsaver »

agent_smith

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Re: Can anyone spot the difference between these two almost "identical" knots?
« Reply #21 on: October 27, 2018, 02:04:45 PM »
The structural similarity noticed by Xarax is illustrated in the attached image.
Hopefully he approves of this illustration?

tsik_lestat

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Re: Can anyone spot the difference between these two almost "identical" knots?
« Reply #22 on: October 27, 2018, 04:30:00 PM »
Knotsaver i agree with you in everything and i was focusing on third case too.
As a matter of fact i have tied those tugboat versions in a reverse like mode!
They seem to deform if ring loaded but i like them!
I even tied it with a girth hitch nipping component and it looked nice!
Doing it in reverse as agent_smith illustrates very well in his pictures, you end up with a nice girth hitch based goto loopknot.

knotsaver

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Re: Can anyone spot the difference between these two almost "identical" knots?
« Reply #23 on: October 27, 2018, 07:39:10 PM »
...I forgot it...
you can use many of the locking mechanism for securing the Standard Bowline:
for instance try tying the corresponding Scott's locking mechanism or the corresponding Fontus or Ampersand...
Ciao,
s.
p.s. Thanks Mark for the picture

tsik_lestat

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Re: Can anyone spot the difference between these two almost "identical" knots?
« Reply #24 on: October 27, 2018, 08:07:19 PM »
i have tied various versions of bowlines except fontus!!(how did i miss it?)

You gave me homework again knotsaver and i like it!Thanks a lot!!!!


knotsaver

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Re: Can anyone spot the difference between these two almost "identical" knots?
« Reply #25 on: October 27, 2018, 10:10:20 PM »
i have tied various versions of bowlines except fontus!!(how did i miss it?)

You gave me homework again knotsaver and i like it!Thanks a lot!!!!

obviously, in my last posts there was an abuse of terminology, because the loop you showed isn't a Standard Bowline and there isn't a standard nipping loop, but I think you got the idea  ;), I mean, try adapting those mechanisms to your loop as you can.
Happy knotting.
Ciao,
s.

tsik_lestat

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Re: Can anyone spot the difference between these two almost "identical" knots?
« Reply #26 on: October 27, 2018, 10:36:29 PM »
I see what you are getting at knotsaver  ;)!!Ampersand looks really good!! 8)!Thanks a  lot!!!

alanleeknots

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Re: Can anyone spot the difference between these two almost "identical" knots?
« Reply #27 on: October 28, 2018, 09:31:37 AM »
Hi All,
          tsik_lestat, This is a lovely simple loop, I like it. I too do a quick, dirty test with heavy used Bluewater Ropes 11mm (7/16")
          SAFELINE NFPA static Rope, I loaded it to 45% of MBS and it's holding very well, but the collar near the standing part was
          pushed up close to the shoulder of the crossing hitch nipping loop's ,Through my experience I assume even loaded with
          maximum load it will not capsize with stiff, static rope, but it may capsize with dynamic rope. Under extreme load dynamic
          rope stretch a lot,  the rope diameter becomes smaller, the crossing hitch nipping loop become smaller size,
          it may have a chance to capsize. Need some serious test than can tell whether it will capsize or not.
          I think this loop is good enough for general use.
          Anyway Xarax do said Congratulation for your found of this new knot.
          Here I like to share my well secure Lee 's Crossing Hitch loop.
          Thanks to Xarax, I was taught by Xarax, when creating a new loop, is nice to have two rope diameter all the way around.
 
           More information see theses links here. 謝謝 alanleeknots.

1) https://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=4988.msg32878#msg32878
2) https://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=4480.120
 
« Last Edit: October 28, 2018, 09:53:18 AM by alanleeknots »

tsik_lestat

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Re: Can anyone spot the difference between these two almost "identical" knots?
« Reply #28 on: October 29, 2018, 11:42:00 PM »
Mr Alan Lee
Thank you that you turned your look on this loopknot and dedicated your time to inspect  and test it.Many thanks to Xarax for his kind words and his crucial remarks.Obviously he sees things we mortals can't.

From your findings, i realize that this eye knot could be used for general purpose light application.Further securing tail measures should be taken to enhance safety and  avoid  those capsizing phenomena that you are reporting, like the way you do it in your own example!(nice way of locking the tail under that crossing X).

Thanks for the links and this lovely eyeknot and keep up the good work with your videos on your channel

tsik_lestat

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Re: Can anyone spot the difference between these two almost "identical" knots?
« Reply #29 on: November 07, 2018, 06:13:31 PM »
Having been analyzing the "Lee Zep bowline" family of knots (all marvelous knots indeed),i came up with a variation of "Lee zep X bowline".
Searching the relative thread and the housekeeping of Xarax to these knots, i could not find anything similar.
I believe Alan Lee and Xarax  might have followed this direction of exploration, but that needs to be confirmed.

Anyway, it appears to me that i have tied the"Reverse Lee's Zep X bowline"(photo 1,2,3) and with a tuck of the WE parallel to the Spart, the "Reverse Lee's link bowline".

I think the first knot is quite strong,since it involves a crossing X Carrick like component(thanks to Derek i recognize this now),{photo1} so it inherits its jam resistance, having the Zep like form from the other side {photo 2}.
The "reverse Lee's link bowline" might be inferior from the ordinary Lee's link bowline but still remains another knot.

I post it here because this thread started up with a reverse like matter(reverse double bowline), and crossing hitches which are discussed previously, have been used to these variations(a bit more complex) as a starting point.