Author Topic: A Simple Locked Bowline  (Read 1629 times)

Mobius

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A Simple Locked Bowline
« on: July 10, 2018, 03:16:34 PM »
I was playing with creating simple-to-do TIB loop knots and this one popped out.  It is a locked bowline, a very simple one. Would someone point me to the thread where it has been discussed before, please? I searched, however not well enough.

For what its worth, it has performed on my rig up to 500kg in 3mm Dyneema well recently. I.e. it does not slip and can still be untied after heavy loading in that material. However, what is it?

SS369

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Re: A Simple Locked Bowline
« Reply #1 on: July 10, 2018, 04:36:57 PM »
Good day mobius.

Here is the thread pertaining to the simple lock(s) for the bowline. http://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=19.0

SS

agent_smith

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Re: A Simple Locked Bowline
« Reply #2 on: July 11, 2018, 12:18:02 AM »
Xarax created a much improved version of Mobius depicted Bowline.
I'll dig up a photo and post it for reference.

If the subject is methods to lock down 'a' Bowline (eg the #1010 common Bowline) - I would have to say that Scott's locked Bowline is remarkable and in my opinion, ingeniously simple.

I am jealous that I did not discover it myself  :-\

I have introduced many climbers to Scott's locked Bowline and it is gaining traction...

Mobius

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Re: A Simple Locked Bowline
« Reply #3 on: July 11, 2018, 01:50:05 AM »
Thank you for the responses, Scott and Mark.

The knot Rob Thorne describes in the lead thread of the link Scott provided might be the loop shown above. Rob refers to pictures and "steps" for his knot, though the pictures appear to have gone.

I was aware of these 'simple' locked tib bowlines before: Scott's Locked Bowline, Dan Lehman's Locked Bowline and Xarax's Ampersand Locked Bowline. The one I show above has some strong points to it for everyday use(s) in comparison to those I mention above, I believe. To be clear, I am not saying it is better (better for what purpose comes to mind), only that it has been an easy knot for me to tie and use securely so far.

I am pretty sure that whatever "much improved version" Xarax came up with, he will have lost the simplicity of the knot I show above (particularly its easy TIBness). However, let's see. Please have a look for it Mark (agent_smith).


« Last Edit: July 11, 2018, 01:56:00 AM by mobius »

agent_smith

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Re: A Simple Locked Bowline
« Reply #4 on: July 11, 2018, 02:59:55 AM »
Special delivery from Xarax :)

I guess 'simple' is in the eye-of-the-beholder.

I am sure Xarax will weigh in and discuss the merits of his creation

Mobius

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Re: A Simple Locked Bowline
« Reply #5 on: July 11, 2018, 08:45:04 AM »
Special delivery from Xarax :)

I guess 'simple' is in the eye-of-the-beholder.

I am sure Xarax will weigh in and discuss the merits of his creation

Thank you, Mark, and lol at Xarax's depiction ;D 8)

I actually thought Mark was fooling me and that this was the Ampersand Bowline until I studied it more closely. It is actually one small tuck different, so maybe not so 'simple' a knot to tie after all if one can be confused by it :) Also, the knot shown by Mark is not TIB and when tied in 11mm static climbing rope it does not snug as well as an Ampersand does (nor as well as the knot in the lead post) and therefore possibly does not 'lock' as well either (subjective).





agent_smith

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Re: A Simple Locked Bowline
« Reply #6 on: July 11, 2018, 01:07:10 PM »
Xarax claims that the image isn't a reasonable likeness of himself   :o
He wrote to me declaring that he only weighs 62kg and is 1.78m in height.

The Xarax Ampersand Bowline is attached for reference. The Ampersand Bowline is TIB.
NOTE: The Bowline in the previous post was (I think) an early investigation by Xarax to find a TIB Bowline with a simple lock. The Ampersand Bowline was born from that effort.

Xarax has indicated that he had discovered the Bowline shown by Mobius in his opening post but he summarily dismissed it as inferior.

Xarax has made the following comments:

Quote
It is not only a matter of simply re-tucking the Tail End of the #1010, in through no-matter-what opening of the nipping structure, in order to gain security - it is the specific structural way, the pressure and so the security provided by the "lock" itself that matters, too.

and;

Quote
The "hottest" spot in a bowline is the crossing point of its nipping loop, anything that happens to pass through there, is squeezed by the two stronger curves of the bowline, the first curve of the continuation of the Standing End ( bearing 100% of the tension ) , and the first curve of the ongoing eye-leg ( bearing 50% of the tension ). The collar is a such a "soft" spot compared to that !  So, I decided to make the re-tucked end of the #1010 pass though there, in between the two strongest curves, through the crossing spot area, and the result was the Ampersand bowline.


And here is a link provided by Xarax (looking back to August 2013):
http://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=4603.msg29705#msg29705
« Last Edit: July 11, 2018, 11:59:16 PM by agent_smith »

alanleeknots

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Re: A Simple Locked Bowline
« Reply #7 on: July 14, 2018, 07:47:16 AM »
Hi All,
        I  have two Simple Locked ABOK #1034 1/2 Bowline, they both well secure, compact, three rope diameters in the
        nipping loop and second collar, the line tuck in nice and smooth, the tail was fully nip by the nipping loop,
        ( THE LAST DEFENCE IS ON, MEET XARAX REQUIREMENT ) easy to tie, just need one tuck,  easy to untie after
        heavy load.
         These two knots work better than it look, also see the link below.
         http://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=19.135     謝謝 alan lee.

Mobius

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Re: A Simple Locked Bowline
« Reply #8 on: July 14, 2018, 08:09:18 AM »
Thank you to both Mark and Xarax for input on this loop.

Assuming there is some more to discuss, I will call it the M-Bowline for now rather than 'the knot in the lead post'. I think, in hindsight, using the word 'lock' for this bowline with such a simple 'Yosemite' tuck was an error. The knot discussed here was never intended to be considered for 'mission critical' applications, which the word lock might suggest.

The M-Bowline might be theoretically inferior in some applications, however, it has some strengths too I think. At the very least, it has been a good TIB loop knot to use on my rig testing knots in Dyneema recently 8)

I will show the TIB method for it after taking some pictures.

agent_smith

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Re: A Simple Locked Bowline
« Reply #9 on: July 14, 2018, 02:26:48 PM »
Hi Mobius,

Xarax asks if you could please take a close look at the knot images in this link: (dated August 2013)
http://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=4603.msg29705#msg29705

With thanks from Xarax.
...

I believe there was a time when Xarax was exploring methods of making various Bowlines TIB (eg via tucking the tail through the collar).
Theses are my words, and not Xarax.

Mobius

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Re: A Simple Locked Bowline
« Reply #10 on: July 20, 2018, 12:54:21 AM »
Alan Lee asked me to post some images of the TIB tying method. The written instructions I first provided in another thread are below:

- With the WE in your right hand, make an overhand loop with your left hand

- Make an overhand loop with your right hand and reeve the RH loop through the LH loop

- Take the bight formed on the left and forward flype it over the loop on the right through 360o, hence forming a
   collar

- Dress the knot


The first few steps are shown below in picture form.

« Last Edit: July 20, 2018, 01:20:04 AM by Mobius »

Mobius

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Re: A Simple Locked Bowline
« Reply #11 on: July 20, 2018, 01:31:49 AM »
The last two steps are simply dressing the knot.

The same knot I show images for was later trialled at 300kg+ in dynamic rope, looking for any heavy loading issues.
« Last Edit: July 20, 2018, 01:53:03 AM by Mobius »

agent_smith

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Re: A Simple Locked Bowline
« Reply #12 on: July 20, 2018, 04:53:38 AM »
per Mobius original post:
Quote
It is a locked bowline, a very simple one

I would refute such a claim...and the title 'locked Bowline' is dubious.
I have tried this structure in Edelrid 'Corbie' 8.5mm diameter EN892 certified dynamic rope and it isn't secure with vigorous cyclic loading.
I also tried it in Stirling HTP 11mm low stretch abseil rope - and it worked loose after vigorous cyclic loading.

I think your mileage will vary according to the type of cord/rope you are using. Due to the fact that these 2 quick and dirt 'backyard' style tests showed the Mobius structure to be vulnerable to vigorous cyclic loading, I think any claim to it being a 'locked' Bowline should be withdrawn.

Given that Scotts locked Bowline status as a secure 'locked' structure isn't cord/rope dependent, and that Alan Lee's (Xarax co-creator) Ampersand Bowline is superior, why bother with this (Mobius) knot?
NOTE: An exception might be 'dyneema' type slippery cordage...Xarax recently pointed out that we should start to look at this area more closely - to see which structures are secure and stable in dyneema - or what level of vulnerability normally secure Bowlines might have when tied in dyneema.

To achieve the Ampersand Bowline, it only needs one additional step; by feeding the tail through the nipping loop.
Also, Xarax had tied this structure years ago while on the path to re-discover Alan Lee's Ampersand Bowline!

Sorry Mobius! This criticism is intended in good faith.
« Last Edit: July 20, 2018, 06:08:47 AM by agent_smith »

Mobius

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Re: A Simple Locked Bowline
« Reply #13 on: July 20, 2018, 10:31:46 AM »
....
I think, in hindsight, using the word 'lock' for this bowline with such a simple 'Yosemite' tuck was an error. The knot discussed here was never intended to be considered for 'mission critical' applications, which the word lock might suggest.
....

Thank you for the feedback agent_smith (Mark), your criticism is welcome.

Note that I implied as much about the claim 'lock' before, I have no qualms in retracting that word. My proposed bowline is a KISS knot that I should have posted in the Practical Knots section.

The Mobius Bowline has issues with cyclic loading, I have no doubt Mark's informal trials are relevant. That is simply not the way I would use this knot though, I would make a different choice of knot if I thought cyclic loading was an issue.

This is a very simple bowline that probably has a little extra security (compared to an RH Bowline) because of the extra tuck. This helps to snug the knub on dressing it and suggests a little extra slack security is available. Most important to me is that I now have a quick, dirty, KISS Bowline that I can tie in a flash in TIB fashion. It is quicker to tie TIB than in the end, if you can use it that way. I can and do use it that way.

A knot needs to be assessed on its usage and be 'fit for purpose', I currently use this Mobius Bowline loop every day. I stand at my workbench, tie it TIB and place it over my rig hook(s). Voila!, and it works for me in a variety of rope types and diameters (more about Dyneema later). It is proving to be a great end loop for me so far. Also, I have no issues using it for everyday things like tying a load down on a trailer or securing the kid's bikes on the bike rack.

...
Given that Scotts locked Bowline status as a secure 'locked' structure isn't cord/rope dependent, and that Alan Lee's (Xarax co-creator) Ampersand Bowline is superior, why bother with this (Mobius) knot?
...

An easy-to-tie KISS knot still has a place in this world one hopes.

This thread has made much mention of the Ampersand Bowline. That knot does not suit my purposes for a number of reasons. Nor does Scotts Locked Bowline, for that matter. However, Dan Lehman's Locked Bowline has a lot going for it from my perspective.

Mark, I appreciate the time you have taken, and I take your comments in good faith. I hope my written views here are received in the same way 8)

(Scott, please move this thread to Practical Knots if you see fit)

Cheers, Ian.
« Last Edit: July 21, 2018, 07:46:11 AM by Mobius »

Mobius

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Re: A Simple Locked Bowline
« Reply #14 on: July 21, 2018, 02:49:29 AM »
  1 and 2

P.S. 2014-6-09 : There is another slightly different variation of the 1 loop, where the second leg of the collar passes from the other side of the returning eye leg - and which is also TIB. The corresponding PET TIB loop is also slightly different, but it is not as interesting as the best of the family, the "pet loop" (A).

This is Xarax's previous input into the bowline I am promoting, along with an image titled "2a.JPG". The link was provided above. A very limited contribution has now been acknowledged. Thank you, Xarax.

I have been chastised (in another thread) for daring to give a decent name to a knot that I found on my own and I alone am promoting. When someone points me to a published description/discussion where someone did not refer to the Mobius Bowline as lacking interest and called it's image "2a" and made more than a spurious passing comment like "variation of the 1 loop", I will stand corrected. There is way too much intellectual snobbery exercised by the old guard on this site sometimes.

As I am probably the only one who will ever use the Mobius Bowline regularly, I will call it what I like. Why should anyone really care what I choose to call a knot I alone use?
« Last Edit: July 21, 2018, 07:07:33 AM by Mobius »