Author Topic: Please review my method of tying off fenders. (Tentative Name: Cramer Hitch)  (Read 620 times)

Agargoyle

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This is similar to the Halter hitch, but the bight is passed behind the standing part as opposed to the turn being formed around the standing part.

My biggest concern is whether that difference is a methodical difference and not a mechanical one. Experts?

https://youtu.be/IQoB_xG1xe8

B.P.

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Edit :
I realized I made mistakes in this message and in some pictures attached, so please don't take it seriously.
/Edit

Hello,

In my opinion, this hitch looks like a half knot (abok #47), but slipped.

I hope you'll be interested by a variation of it : the difference with the one presented in the video is that the bight, to get in the turn, doesn't go under, but above it.

I think this is more secure (but I may be wrong because I'm not an expert), it makes me think of the slipped figure-eight knot (abok #1824) - and maybe could be qualified as one, but of a different type ?


Thanks for sharing.
« Last Edit: June 02, 2018, 10:01:01 AM by B.P. »

Agargoyle

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I can verify that, if you pass the running part instead of a bight in the running part, this is a marlinspike hitch. Nothing that isn't a marlinspike hitch is my hitch, and mine has a quick release bight.

B.P.

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Edit :
I realized I made mistakes in this message and in some pictures attached, so please don't take it seriously.
/Edit

Hello,

if you pass the running part instead of a bight in the running part, this is a marlinspike hitch

I don't think so and took pictures to show it  :
- "your" hitch ( yellow ) in comparison with a half knot ( red ) loose
- "your" hitch ( yellow ) in comparison with a half knot ( red ) tight
- what would be a slipped marlingspike ( red, front and rear views )


Nothing that isn't a marlinspike hitch is my hitch.

How can you be so sure ?

You may be interested by the abok #52, #219, #1212 and #1822.


and mine has a quick release bight.

A common knot with a quick release bight is said to be slipped.

Even if this was effectivly based on a marlinspike hitch, the marlinspike is known since long time to be unsecure.
Ashley wrote :
"1789. The Marlingspike Hitch, given by Dana in 1841, has sometimes been called,
in magazine articles, ?the Boat Knot? and is said to be used over a stake for tying up.
If this spills, it becomes the ordinary Noose Hitch shown as #1803,
a knot which is seldom allowed to approach salt water. "

source of quote :
https://archive.org/stream/TheAshleyBookOfKnots/the+ashley+book+of+knots_djvu.txt


You posted a video, referenced on Google and Youtube.

In it you say "your load is secure, not going anywhere",
while so you're pulling on it and we can see that in fact the hitch begins to slip,
on the fender for sure, but probably in its itself structure too.

You wrote
"Cramer Hitch: The Best Way to Secure a Fender
My personally developed hitch, derived from a modified marlinspike hitch.
"

On the video there are flags, you wear a uniform which seems official, you speak in a very affirmative way. But you came here because in fact you're not sure.
There are persons, specially children, who could watch the video and use "your" hitch in confidence to secure precious things, beginning by themselves.

I think there's a security issue.

Please consider that I'm maybe not wrong. I'm writing it because I think this is the truth. My purpose is not to be offensive, but realistic, and if possible, since you seem more sympathic than the opposite :) , to help you.

If I'm wrong, senior contributors of the forum will probably inform us.


« Last Edit: June 02, 2018, 10:07:58 AM by B.P. »

knotsaver

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Hi Agargoyle and B.P.,
[/edit] first of all, could you Agargoyle please post a picture of the so named Cramer Hitch? [edit]
I begin by noticing that the "Cramer", the Halter, the (slipped) Marlingspike Hitches and the (slipped) Champagne Knot are topologically the same knot (not in the sense that they are equivalent to the unknot, but in the sense that we can, by starting from one knot, obtain the others by simple moves without untying the knot).
[/edit] please, note that they work differently, in real/practical knotting the geometry of a knot is more important than its topology! [edit]
The Champagne Knot is shown also as a fig 8 marlinespike see (1, p.300-301), really they are both shown in the same page of that book (p.301).
The Marlingspike is usually shown as in ABoK#1789, but in ABoK#1186 (central figure) it looks like the Cramer (so we can call the Cramer a Slipeed Marlingspike (#1186) Hitch). The nipping loop and the rim of the bight (of the collar, I mean the point of contact of the Standing Part and the Running Part before it enters the nipping loop) should stay at the antipods, otherwise the nipping loop is not stable. And so if the Cramer is not stable it can vanish or can capsize into the Halter Hitch.

I think that the Cramer Hitch can show nipping loop instability (yes it can depend on the rope used, the pole, the movement of the Hitch (are you sure it is the best hitch for a fender, Agargoyle?)...). I think a better Cramer variant is shown in the first attached picture (it is based on a Figure 9 knot or better it is a twisted slipped Marlingspike Hitch) but you can obtain it from the standard Cramer by going around the Standing Part from the opposite side. (A more stable nipping loop is obtained with another twist but in that case we lose the quick release feature, because after releasing the slipped bight the rope remains under the wrap).
(I'm using the "figure something" terminology but it can be misleading!?).

Xarax has tied a similar hitch (not slipped) but with another purpose, he named it Bowline Hitch: look at the second picture.

Hope this helps.

Ciao,
s.


1. http://books.google.com/books?id=miHrAAAAMAAJ&pg=PA300&lpg=PA300&dq=champagne-knot&source=bl&ots=nY1U-dk1V2&sig=ioady6BpwS6h1oYHqipvWxhIp9c&hl=en&sa=X&ei=G4gQT4a4DMbdtgfi6Ph0&ved=0CDwQ6AEwBA#v=onepage&q=champagne-knot&f=false
from http://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=3748.msg21765#msg21765
« Last Edit: June 01, 2018, 11:31:10 AM by knotsaver »

B.P.

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Hello,

Thank you Knotsaver for your message, and sorry to Agargoyle and everybody for my 2 preceding posts. I watched the video again and realized that I made a mistake.
The comments of Asley about weakness of the marlingspike remain but I like the Cramer hitch and will probably use it in some occasions :)