Author Topic: Basko loop investigation  (Read 992 times)

Ramos

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 10
Basko loop investigation
« on: June 14, 2018, 02:14:11 PM »
Hello,
I'd like to bring this knot for investigation. It's similar to the Cabestan (Fig. 68 background pic), ABoK #1987, ABoK #1991, ABoK #1992
It's super-easy to tie and really handy, an extra half hitch for security is possible.
The Basko loop (Basque country-Bashkortostan Rep).
Thank you, Ramos.
« Last Edit: June 14, 2018, 02:17:32 PM by Ramos »

Dan_Lehman

  • Sr. Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3744
Re: Basko loop investigation
« Reply #1 on: June 14, 2018, 09:44:38 PM »
('68' not being visible, but #68 (capstan knot) referred to
  is immediately below the visibly numbered "69".)

Ha, I just fiddled such a knot, myself!  (I'll need to check
how similar, but similar in the "returning eye leg" going
past the SPart's nipping turn and THEN u-turning to pass
through it, and collar itself.  In my case, I've done some
little further tucking.)

I don't think I've seen such a knot making this "going
past ... and then U-turning" structure.  There are some
similar structures that look good, or even better, too.
(Although now that I see your tying imagery, hmmm,
there is much resemblance to "carrick" structures before
final setting.)

Good find!

(-;

Ramos

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 10
Re: Basko loop investigation
« Reply #2 on: June 15, 2018, 07:37:28 AM »
Thank you for your kind reply Dan.
Pictures step by step








Cabstan





Ramos

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 10
Re: Basko loop investigation
« Reply #3 on: June 15, 2018, 07:39:25 AM »

knotsaver

  • Sr. Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 281
Re: Basko loop investigation
« Reply #4 on: June 15, 2018, 08:07:01 AM »
Hello,
I'd like to bring this knot for investigation.

Hello Ramos,
the eye is shown (in a loose form) by Graumont&Hensel in their Encyclopedia as the Half-Open Carrick Loop (plate 33, #150).
I think the nipping loop performs better if you start with a left-handed loop!
Ciao
« Last Edit: June 15, 2018, 08:09:39 AM by knotsaver »

SS369

  • Global Moderator
  • Sr. Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1797
Re: Basko loop investigation
« Reply #5 on: June 15, 2018, 07:41:19 PM »
Good day Ramos.

Thanks for bringing your find.

I had played with versions of the Carrick structure some time back and found that I preferred to make a full coil at the nipping area as in the attached photos.
I favor a bowline with a security lock for my personal uses instead.

SS

Dan_Lehman

  • Sr. Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3744
Re: Basko loop investigation
« Reply #6 on: June 17, 2018, 07:42:56 PM »

Ha, I just fiddled such a knot, myself!  (I'll need to check
how similar, but similar in the "returning eye leg" going
past the SPart's nipping turn and THEN u-turning to pass
through it, and collar itself.  In my case, I've done some
little further tucking.)
Yes, I take the tail beyond your point back through
the tuck (making a larkshead/girth,cow hitch) and
then tuck it through the main nipping loop (giving
3 diameters for that to surround & compress).

I still need to play with it in some of my firmer/stiffer
(less flexible) climbing ropes (an old Mammut? (ca. 1990?!)
& a gym rope) for assessing it's ability to resist too
much loosening.

(That said, since October 2016 I've illustrated my
collection of then-not-yet-drawn(but-in-play-ropes)
knots and tallied over 200 (!) eye knots of 500 total ::
how many could one possibly need?
 (Well, among that 200 are plenty that could be tossed
 w/o great remorse, but then there remain many decent
 things, too.)
)

I'll double-check the Hensel & Gretel reference;
the number "150" must be different from one knot
I've cited of theirs, which is a BS attempted parroting
of the Wot?knot.  But mostly they're just BS, nonsense.
(--and through FOUR editions and numerous printings)

Btw, vs. the Capstan knot, I'm thinking that this
"Basko Loop" should be seen as better resisting
the **helical** shape of the SPart --more towards
a "loop" and that structure's better/surer compressing
--a possibility, at least, when dressing & setting.
Which is to concur in SS369's leaning to a surer thing.


(-;

Ramos

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 10
Re: Basko loop investigation
« Reply #7 on: June 18, 2018, 02:09:05 PM »
Thank you very much for this investigation!
IMO this knot has the advantage that is very easy to tie and remember (only 3 basic steps), it's adjustable and I suppose it doesn't jam the rope.
About the utilities I'm no quite sure yet, there may be several.
Many thanks, Ramos



Dan_Lehman

  • Sr. Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3744
Re: Basko loop investigation
« Reply #8 on: June 18, 2018, 08:04:43 PM »
the eye is shown (in a loose form) by Graumont&Hensel in their Encyclopedia
[ aka "Hensel & Gretel" ]
 as the Half-Open Carrick Loop (plate 33, #150).
And also --maybe w/o realizing the equality--
at plate 38 #218 (IIRC), with a different, invented name.
Although, they present this *knot* with two levels
of ambiguity :
1) (typical of H&G) they have ends of equal length,
without hint of which should be loaded (or anything
re loading);
2) how to dress the knot.
(It's conceivable to have the tail folding,
as with the OP; but the tail might be straight
with the other part folding around IT!)


--dl*
====

knotsaver

  • Sr. Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 281
Re: Basko loop investigation
« Reply #9 on: June 18, 2018, 11:47:05 PM »

And also --maybe w/o realizing the equality--
at plate 38 #218 (IIRC), with a different, invented name.


...no Dan, it is different: in #150 (as in the knot by Ramos) the 2 initial loops/turns are of the same handedness/chirality whilst in #218 the loops/turns are of different handedness (as the knot I proposed thinking that the nipping loop performs better): but I don't see any Weaver's Knot (whilst they saw it!?).
(by the way, with the same nub by reversing or by using different branches as eyelegs or SParts we can obtain different knots...)
Quote
Although, they present this *knot* with two levels
of ambiguity :
1) (typical of H&G) they have ends of equal length,
without hint of which should be loaded (or anything
re loading);
2) how to dress the knot.
...


yes I agree with you: it's a strange book, but I use it as a book of exercises 😉: I tie a knot and then I try to evaluate it!  :)
By the way, Cyrus Day in the bibliography of his "The art of knotting & splicing" about Graumont&Hensel's Encyclopedia says:"(Much of the historical introduction is derived, with verbal alterations, from Day, Sailor's Knots, 1935.)".  :-\

Ciao,
s.

[edit] p.s. with this post I become a Sr Member!
 :o  8)  :D  ???
« Last Edit: June 18, 2018, 11:50:48 PM by knotsaver »

Ramos

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 10
Re: Basko loop investigation
« Reply #10 on: June 22, 2018, 08:46:23 AM »
Knotsaver ,  I couldn't find H&G (plate 33, #150) to get an idea. Sorry

knotsaver

  • Sr. Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 281
Re: Basko loop investigation
« Reply #11 on: June 22, 2018, 01:32:04 PM »
Here they are...
Sorry for the quality...
the #150 is the mirror image of yours.
Ciao,
s.

Ramos

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 10
Re: Basko loop investigation
« Reply #12 on: June 22, 2018, 03:10:30 PM »
Hello Knotsaver, many thanks for the pictures. Yes, it's the same knot indeed, tied on the right (mirror).
All the best.
Ramos

agent_smith

  • Sr. Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 975
Re: Basko loop investigation
« Reply #13 on: June 22, 2018, 04:48:05 PM »
And so...in its unloaded 'carrick like' dressing state, it is vulnerable to transformation.

When load is applied, the returning eye leg triggers transformation into its final stable state.

As an 'eye knot' - I see no advantages over other eye knots such as Scotts locked Bowline.
I also dont see a nipping loop in the final stable dressing state (it has collapsed).
In terms of its 'utility' - I see nothing noteworthy here (sorry).

Scotts locked Bowline is increasing finding utility as an eye knot in my rope work - and I have introduced many people to it. It is ingeniously simple and effective.

Off-topic, I like Scotts examples that he had posted in this thread - I would like to investigate them further.


Edit note: Grammar corrections...
« Last Edit: June 22, 2018, 04:51:03 PM by agent_smith »

alanleeknots

  • Sr. Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 488
Re: Basko loop investigation
« Reply #14 on: June 22, 2018, 11:58:43 PM »
Hi All,
        For Carrick loop, I prefer this Carrick loop #1033, is a very simple knot, is easy to tie it with an Eskimo nipping loop instead
        transform it from Carrick loop #1033.
        When loading this loop, the standing part will pull and rotate the tail try to tightening the nub."SELF TIGHTENING EFFECT"
        make the knot more compact.
        Even though this knot is no so well balance, it will not jam, can handle extreme load and super-easy to untie.

         For general purpose I prefer Reroute Eskimo bowline. 謝謝 alan lee.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CCwifo9REDQ