Author Topic: 2 keys knot - Noeud a deux clefs  (Read 1537 times)

B.P.

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2 keys knot - Noeud a deux clefs
« on: May 28, 2018, 05:21:23 AM »
Hello,

I hope you'll find this "two keys knot" and its declinations interesting and will test them.

It usually takes me a few seconds to tie the regular knot ( between 3 and 8 ), employing a method wich also reduces risks of wrong tying I presume. Will you figure out how ? :)

B.

Here's the list of some versions/usages of the knot :

1.
Basics
Bases

1.1.1.
Two keys knot
Noeud a 2 clefs
4 Pictures

1.1.2.
Mirror
Miroir
1 Picture

1.2.
Quick release
Avec ganse
1 Picture

1.3.
Running
De laguis
1 Picture

2.
Finishes
Finitions

2.1.
Ring
Finition anneau
1 Picture

2.2.1.
Cross
Finition croix
3 Pictures

2.2.2.
Cross, quick release with working end in the extra bight
Finition croix avec ganse, avec courant repassant dans la ganse supplementaire
3 Pictures

2.3.
Yosemite
1 Picture of 2 views
1 Photo de 2 vues

3.
Multiloops
Multiboucles

3.1.
2 loops
Deux boucles
4 Pictures

3.2.1.
3 loops (T.I.B.)
Trois boucles (sur le double)
2 Picture

3.2.2.
2+1 loops (T.I.B. cross finish)
Deux boucles plus une (sur le double finition croix)
2 Pictures

4.
Bend
Ajut

4.1.
Twin bend
D'agui
1 Picture ( posted with pictures of 1.1.2., 1.2 and 1.3 )

4.2.
Sheet bend
D'ecoute
4 Pictures

5.
Binding or hitch
D'accroche
4 Pictures


(
French is my language, so please pardon the english of this post, translated from this :

Bonjour,
J'espere que vous trouverez de l'interet a ce "noeud a deux clefs" ainsi qu'a ses declinaisons et que vous les testerez.

Cela me prend en general quelques secondes (entre trois et huit) pour dresser le noeud de base, utilisant une methode qui reduit aussi me semble-t-il les risques de mauvais nouage. Verrez-vous comment ? :)
)
« Last Edit: May 29, 2018, 06:22:56 PM by B.P. »

B.P.

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Re: 2 keys knot - Noeud a deux clefs
« Reply #1 on: May 29, 2018, 06:32:02 PM »
1.1.1.
Two keys knot
Noeud a 2 clefs
4 Pictures

B.P.

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Re: 2 keys knot - Noeud a deux clefs
« Reply #2 on: May 29, 2018, 06:33:59 PM »
1.1.2.
Mirror
Miroir
1 Picture

1.2.
Quick release
Avec ganse
1 Picture

1.3.
Running
De laguis
1 Picture

4.1.
Twin bend
D'agui
1 Picture

B.P.

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Re: 2 keys knot - Noeud a deux clefs
« Reply #3 on: May 29, 2018, 06:37:08 PM »
2.1.
Ring
Finition anneau
1 Picture

2.2.1.
Cross
Finition croix
3 Pictures

B.P.

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Re: 2 keys knot - Noeud a deux clefs
« Reply #4 on: May 29, 2018, 06:39:11 PM »
2.2.2.
Cross, quick release with working end in the extra bight
Finition croix avec ganse, avec courant repassant dans la ganse supplementaire
3 Pictures

2.3.
Yosemite
1 Picture of 2 views
1 Photo de 2 vues

B.P.

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Re: 2 keys knot - Noeud a deux clefs
« Reply #5 on: May 29, 2018, 06:41:12 PM »
3.1.
2 loops
Deux boucles
4 Pictures

B.P.

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Re: 2 keys knot - Noeud a deux clefs
« Reply #6 on: May 29, 2018, 06:44:11 PM »
3.2.1.
3 loops (T.I.B.)
Trois boucles (sur le double)
2 Pictures

3.2.2.
2+1 loops (T.I.B. cross finish)
Deux boucles plus une (sur le double finition croix)
2 Pictures

B.P.

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Re: 2 keys knot - Noeud a deux clefs
« Reply #7 on: May 29, 2018, 06:50:50 PM »
4.2.
Sheet bend
D'ecoute
4 Pictures

yellow cordage : 7mm
red cordage : 4mm

B.P.

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Re: 2 keys knot - Noeud a deux clefs
« Reply #8 on: May 29, 2018, 06:53:26 PM »
5.
Binding or hitch
D'accroche
4 Pictures

I didn't test it much in this way but would say that it's between the clove hitch and the constrictor knot.
Je ne l'ai pas beaucoup teste de cette facon mais dirais que c'est entre le cabestan et le constricteur.

noeud_a_2_clefs_d-accroche_2.jpg =
Object hanged from the working end
Objet suspendu par le courant

noeud_a_2_clefs_d-accroche_3.jpg =
Object hanged from the standing part
Objet suspendu par le dormant

noeud_a_2_clefs_d-accroche_3.jpg =
Object hanged from both ends
Objet suspendu par les deux brins
« Last Edit: May 29, 2018, 07:08:08 PM by B.P. »

B.P.

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Re: 2 keys knot - Noeud a deux clefs
« Reply #9 on: June 02, 2018, 10:13:02 AM »
An anchor point based on the 2 keys knot.

On one of the attached pictures the working end is on the left and a red cord is passed through the central collar (key).

knotsaver

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Re: 2 keys knot - Noeud a deux clefs
« Reply #10 on: June 02, 2018, 02:18:33 PM »
Hello,

I hope you'll find this "two keys knot" and its declinations interesting and will test them.

It usually takes me a few seconds to tie the regular knot ( between 3 and 8 ), employing a method wich also reduces risks of wrong tying I presume. Will you figure out how ? :)

B.


Hello B.P. and welcome,
for the moment only a note on the tying method:
you can (and I think you do) tie the eye by tying a Marlingspike Hitch using a bight as a marlinspike and then back-flip the bight as in the Bowline on th bight

Ciao,
s.

B.P.

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Re: 2 keys knot - Noeud a deux clefs
« Reply #11 on: August 25, 2018, 10:20:58 PM »
Hello B.P. and welcome,
for the moment only a note on the tying method:
you can (and I think you do) tie the eye by tying a Marlingspike Hitch using a bight as a marlinspike and then back-flip the bight as in the Bowline on th bight

Ciao,
s.

Hello knotsaver,

Thank you very much  :)

About the tying method, I'm not sure to understand what you wrote but my guess would be that it's not "my" solution.

I can naturally tie the knot by an obvious way, like described by agent_smith :



(
 original picture :
titled  Bowline_559_Virtual_comparison.jpg
posted there https://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=6231.msg41996#msg41996

other messages of agent_smith and siriuso about what they called a "virtual bowline" or "Mark's knot" :
https://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=6223.msg42005#msg42005

https://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=6111.msg42011#msg42011

https://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=6232.msg42024#msg42024

https://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=3233.msg42055#msg42055
)

but I also tie the knot by a less obvious way.

When I posted my first message of this thread I was hopping that some of the members of the forum would enjoy trying to find how.

I'll probably publish at some point the explanation, but for the moment here's a simple kind of proof that this knot can be tied very quickly and in, according to me, an easy way :


p.s. : images attached to the precedent messages of this thread no longer appear, I don't know why and if it will be fixed, so as a reminder here are photos of the knot :







« Last Edit: August 26, 2018, 01:18:40 AM by B.P. »

agent_smith

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Re: 2 keys knot - Noeud a deux clefs
« Reply #12 on: August 26, 2018, 02:39:52 AM »
Bonjour B.P.

And merci for posting your work here at the IGKT forum.
It is very much appreciated :)

My French speaking skills are shockingly poor - and my 17 year old daughter took French lessons at school so she assisted me a little.

I am very interested in how you and yChan have used #559 Marlinspike hitch as the basis for creating your 'virtual Bowlines'.

I have intended that the phrase 'virtual Bowline' denotes:
 Almost or nearly as described, but not completely or according to a strict definition.
 Almost a particular thing or quality.
 Almost, but not exactly or in every way.


I am aware that my introduction of this phrase could attract undue negative attention - and any detractors should be aware that it is a 'work-in-progress'.
Xarax has criticized the use of the word 'virtual' because he feels that in the modern era - it has come to be associated with computer generated imagery (virtual reality).
But, I think as long as I provide a glossary of my intended meanings, it should be understood in the way that I intended.

Another phrase that I have introduced is; 'First order Bowlines' (or; Bowlines of the first order).
What I mean by 'first order' is:
 Of major importance or significance.
 Used to denote something that is excellent or considerable of its kind.
 A thing having the highest status in a group.


In my view, the illustrations depicted by Ashley at #1010, #1012, #1013, #1034 1/2, #1080 and #1087, are 'first order Bowlines' (or Bowlines of the first order).
Without exception, all of these Bowlines have nipping structures based directly on a helix (or double helix).

For me, where things get interesting is when you use a nipping structure that isn't based directly on a helix - for example, a TIB non-jamming hitch such as #206 or #559.
Provided that all other requirements of a 'Bowline' are met, I think that these structures could be regarded as 'virtual Bowlines' (with the word virtual having the meaning I tendered above).

...

I like your particular creation very much - it has an elegant geometry.
Of note is that in your creation (in comparison to yChan) - is that both legs of the collar are encircled and clamped by the #559 nipping structure. In comparison, in yChans creation - one of the legs is displaced.
I had advanced that a nipping structure must freely encircle and clamp both legs of the bight (NOTE: Some will prefer to conceptualize the collar and its 2 legs as a 'bight' component).

Your creation:
1. Has a collar that performs a U turn around the SPart
2. Has a nipping structure that is loaded at both ends, is TIB and jam resistant
3. Is PET (post eye tiable) - which some would prefer to identify as post 'loop' tiable
4. Has a fixed 'eye' (which some would prefer to identify as a 'loop')

For these reasons, I believe that it is deserving of the title 'Virtual Bowline based on #559'.

I am not clear about its stability when 'ring-loaded' - we'll see. I am also unclear how well virtual Bowlines built from #559 will remain 'stable'. If I find some spare time, I'll perform a load test to assess stability...

NOTE: I think Geoffrey Budworth (a prolific author who some would regard as an 'expert' on knots), defines a 'loop' as being formed by the overlap of one rope segment over (or under) the other so as to create a helix. The resulting helix can have either S or Z chirality.
I have formed this view based on examination of some of his books where he attempts to illustrate his conceptualization of a 'loop'.

Au revoir,
Mark
« Last Edit: August 26, 2018, 03:55:59 AM by agent_smith »

siriuso

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Re: 2 keys knot - Noeud a deux clefs
« Reply #13 on: August 26, 2018, 06:42:40 AM »
Hi B. P.,

Your knot in the photo in red cord is a bowline. It is a mirror image of Mark's Knot (I have mentioned together with my Yia Loop Knot. But of Mark's, it is a bowline, he also calls it a virtual bowline).

yChan

DerekSmith

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Re: 2 keys knot - Noeud a deux clefs
« Reply #14 on: August 26, 2018, 12:41:06 PM »


I would grant that this is one of Mark's 'Virtual Bowlines', as in : Virtual - not existing in reality.

However, we really should post a Warning Note with any knot that is presented as an open lacing, because lacings may be dressed into a number of working conformations, and we are dealing with working knots here rather than artforms.

So, before commenting on the virtual Bowlinesqueness or not for this knot, could you please post the intended dressing for the final working knot.  I request this because I have just dressed it into a Carrick component with a bight based nipping helix, and another form that I would not even try to categorise, other than to say it is not a Bowline even in the most virtual of realities.

Derek