Author Topic: yChan's Knot - Yia Loop Knot  (Read 766 times)

siriuso

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yChan's Knot - Yia Loop Knot
« on: April 03, 2018, 04:21:42 PM »
Hi dear all,

I have a "New" bowline here named Yia Bowline for sharing and comment.

yChan
« Last Edit: August 21, 2018, 06:16:08 PM by siriuso »

siriuso

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Re: yChan's Knot - Yia Bowline
« Reply #1 on: August 16, 2018, 09:12:48 PM »
Hi dear all,

Should you have some comments on this knot?. I would like to learn from you.

Happy Knotting
yChan

alanleeknots

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Re: yChan's Knot - Yia Bowline
« Reply #2 on: August 16, 2018, 10:29:57 PM »
Hi All,
        yChan, Your knot doesn't have a proper collar, is tight and twist jam into the nob, that is easy to jam,
        If turn the nipping structure around then you get a nice collar, then it may not jam that easy,
        I never have serious test before not sure how heavy it can handled the load before it jam,
         I tied this knot long time ago, need time to find the link.  謝謝 alanleeknots

agent_smith

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Re: yChan's Knot - Yia Bowline
« Reply #3 on: August 17, 2018, 12:09:11 AM »
Hello yChan,

Thank you for your presentation.

Quote
I have a "New" bowline here named Yia Bowline for sharing and comment.

This structure is not [a] 'Bowline'.

per yChan:
Quote
Should you have some comments on this knot?. I would like to learn from you.
Firstly, and fundamental to all 'Bowlines' is a functional 'nipping loop'. Your presentation has a 'nipping structure' that takes the form of a #206 / #1195 crossing knot - but, it is not in the form of a closed helix. For this reason, I can say that it is a 'nipping structure' (but not a nipping loop). If the nipping loop does not have a strict closed helix form, then your presentation may be in a category that I like to refer to as a sub-class of Bowlines.
Xarax had recently emailed a number of 'eye knots' that have nipping structures based on #206 / #1195 crossing knots - and this forces a re-think of what constitutes [a] 'Bowline'. The Mike Karash double loop knot is one such entity that has a nipping structure based on a #206 / #1195 crossing knot. I regard this as a sub-class of 'Bowline'.

Second: The nipping loop must fully encircle and squeeze both legs of the collar.
This requirement is not fulfilled - and so it must be excluded from being refereed to as [a] 'Bowline'.

Third: To qualify as [a] 'Bowline', there must be a collar with 2 legs - the collar is braced upon the SPart (that is, the SPart acts as a bracing post for the collar).

Fourth: All 'Bowlines' are resistant to jamming.

Fifth: All 'Bowlines' have an 'eye' (which some prefer to call a loop) which permits attachments/connections. However, the use of the term 'loop' to denote the 'eye' in my view, dilutes and loosens the definition of a 'loop'.

NOTE: All of these requirements are inter-dependent. That is, there is an inter-dependency that each of each of these elements function holistically together.

Your presentation does not fulfill all of the above requirements.

I have explained in previous posts what the definition of a 'nipping loop' is.
But, (again):
A nipping loop is a closed helix that is formed by the overlap of one rope segment over (or under) the other. The arc scribed by the loop can be less than 360 degrees. A loop thus formed may have S or Z chirality. A 'loop' becomes a 'nipping loop' when both of its ends are loaded and freely able to encircle and squeeze elements within the knot core. In a common Bowline (eg #1010) - the elements that are encircled and squeezed are the 2 legs of the collar.

An example to help understand what a 'nipping loop' is; in #1431 Sheet bend there is no functional nipping loop (because it isn't loaded at both ends). The Sheet bend does have a 'loop' but, it isn't a 'nipping loop'. And this is the difference between a 'loop' and a 'nipping loop'. What is occurring in a Sheet bend is that the overlap of one rope segment over the top of the other (which creates a 'loop')  is trapping and crushing its own tail. Also, I should point out that [a] 'Bowline' is an eye knot (not an end-to-end joining knot).

With regard to encirclement and squeezing of both legs of the collar - Xarax has emailed some interesting structures which present difficulties with the applying the concept of 'encirclement' and squeezing (clamping) both legs of the collar.

EDIT NOTE:
Some grammar edits were made to clarify and tighten my definitions.
« Last Edit: August 17, 2018, 04:21:38 AM by agent_smith »

DerekSmith

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Re: yChan's Knot - Yia Bowline
« Reply #4 on: August 17, 2018, 03:42:00 PM »
@Mark
Quote
Also, I should point out that [a] 'Bowline' is an eye knot (not an end-to-end joining knot).

You have allowed the Eskimo Bwl into the group you defined as Bowlines.

If the Eskimo SP is left unloaded and you use only the loop as a sling, is it then ejected from the family simply on usage?

Derek
« Last Edit: August 17, 2018, 03:44:35 PM by DerekSmith »

agent_smith

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Re: yChan's Knot - Yia Bowline
« Reply #5 on: August 17, 2018, 05:25:40 PM »
per Derek:
Quote
You have allowed the Eskimo Bwl into the group you defined as Bowlines.

Actually, the so-called Eskimo Bowline (and its slipped variant) are in a sub-class called 'anti-Bowlines'.
Link: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eskimo_bowline

Ashley never depicted anti-Bowlines in his book (in so far as I have not been able to find an illustration by him).

Dan Lehman actually used the term 'anti' to describe this sub-class. With 'anti' referring to everything being in an opposite relative direction:
1. The direction the tail takes is in the opposite direction relative to the #1010 Bowline.
2, The collar forms around the ongoing eye leg (instead of the SPart).

There are 4 different forms of the 'anti-Bowline'.

Quote
If the Eskimo SPart is left unloaded and you only use the structure as a round sling, is it then ejected from the Bowline family simply due to loading profile / application?

Not clear on what you meant by "family"? Do you mean excluded from being identified as a sub-class of 'Bowline'?
EDIT NOTE: I exercised my literary licence and reworded your question! :)

The answer comes down to the following:
1. The original intent of the knot tyer; and
2. The intended loading profile of the knot structure.

If I intended to form a round sling from a length of rope, I wouldn't be conceptualising an 'eye knot'.
I would be thinking in terms of uniting the 2 ends with an end-to-end joining knot (eg a Sheet bend).

There is a correspondence between eye knots and end-to-end joining knots (we already know and understand this).
And so, there is a correspondence between #1431 Sheet bend, and an 'anti-Bowline'.

In Grant Prattley's case, this is not how his report was written (in his Blog report on his 'Over the edge rescue' web site).
He did not clearly depict the loading profile in his photo and indeed, the knot tyers intended application.
He did not state that the configuration of the structure was intended to be used as a 'round sling' - using  #1431 Sheet bend to unite the 2 ends. The configuration as depicted in his report was that the structure was used for abseil descent - so it was tied and used as an eye knot (with the 'eye' linked to an anchor point) and the SPart was loaded.

In #1053 Butterfly eye knot, it is formed 'TIB' (without access to either end) - and the intent is to load the 'eye' (ie eye loading).
If I destroy the 'eye' by cutting it - I effectively end up with 2 pieces of rope united with an end-to-end joining knot (ie #1053 derived Butterfly bend).

In drawing a relationship between an eye knot and [a] corresponding 'bend' (ie end-to-end joining knot) - one has to be clear on intended configuration and loading profile.

In the immediate case you have offered (with an 'anti-Bowline' deliberately loaded to bypass the SPart) - I see this configuration as a round sling, and not an eye knot. Also, in such a configuration - load is split 50/50 between each leg of the sling. In other words, the end-to-end joining knot (within a round sling configuration) is only subjected to 50% of the load (relative to a direct linear loading when there is no round sling).

But I do accept your point re the core of a #1431 Sheet bend as having a correspondence to the core of an 'anti-Bowline' when both are loaded in in a specific manner.
« Last Edit: August 17, 2018, 11:47:01 PM by agent_smith »

DerekSmith

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Re: yChan's Knot - Yia Bowline
« Reply #6 on: August 18, 2018, 08:29:11 AM »
@Mark (agent_smith  aka Agent smith61 ?)
Quote
Actually, the so-called Eskimo Bowline (and its slipped variant) are in a sub-class called 'anti-Bowlines'.
Link: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eskimo_bowline

Ashley never depicted anti-Bowlines in his book (in so far as I have not been able to find an illustration by him).

Dan Lehman actually used the term 'anti' to describe this sub-class. With 'anti' referring to everything being in an opposite relative direction:
1. The direction the tail takes is in the opposite direction relative to the #1010 Bowline.
2, The collar forms around the ongoing eye leg (instead of the SPart).

Mark, if indeed you are Agent smith61 on Wikipedia, then I consider it duplicitous to use a reference to a page you have had significant input to, in substantiation of your arguments here, without a clear declaration of your involvement in that reference.

If you are not Agent smith61 on Wikipedia, then please disregard this comment.

Derek

agent_smith

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Re: yChan's Knot - Yia Bowline
« Reply #7 on: August 18, 2018, 11:53:00 AM »
per Derek:
Quote
Mark, if indeed you are Agent smith61 on Wikipedia, then I consider it duplicitous to use a reference to a page you have had significant input to, in substantiation of your arguments here, without a clear declaration of your involvement in that reference.

And this comment is suggestive of some sort of impropriety on my behalf.
You need to be 100% clear that the wikipedia article already existed. That is, the principle content was already in existence prior to my edit.

My edit added a reference to Dan Lehman and his suggested use of the descriptor 'anti-Bowline'. In other words, I made a reference to Dan Lehman and added his reasoning why he coined this phrase to describe the structure. It is all factual.
There is nothing sinister here and I have nothing to declare.

Gosh... I agree with Dan that the descriptor 'anti-Bowline' is appropriate.
And I concur that the reference to 'anti' is due to fact that all maneuvers are in the opposite direction relative to the common #1010 Bowline.

As far as i am aware, Dan Lehman has raised no objections to the use of the descriptor 'anti-Bowline' to identify an 'Eskimo Bowline'.
« Last Edit: August 18, 2018, 04:53:01 PM by agent_smith »

siriuso

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Re: yChan's Knot - Yia Bowline
« Reply #8 on: August 19, 2018, 07:55:35 PM »
Hi dear all and Derek,

The making of these knots are trails by using alternative knots/components, in stead of using helix loop. I use #559 Marlingspike Hitch (not #206 Crossing Knot) , or #514 Overhand Knot as the nipping loops for different 'New' bowlines. I agree to Derek's suggestion it is worth exploring.

I name them 'Bowline' because they compose with the elements so shown in #1010 Bowline. While after all views and discussions in this forum, I do not mind if these knots are categorized into 'Bowline' or not. If they fell to achieve the definitations, I would name them as Loop Knot. IMO, I do not prefer using the name 'Eye Knot' because an eye implies small hole/opening/ring, but a closed/fixed loop is much bigger and for use to encircling or connecting object(s) of bigger size(s).

The components of these knots are : -

Collar - in Y2A & Y3A Bwls : yes, they exist.
in Yia Bwl : yes, it exists in twisted form.

Nipping Loop - in Y2A & Y3A Bwls : Overhand Knot are used (while #1019 Eskimo Bowstring Loop Knot has it's WE goes round it's SP.)
in Yia Bwl : Marlingspike Hitch is used.

2 Legs - in Y2A & Y3A Bwls : yes, they exist.
in Yia Bwl : yes, they exist.

WE tucking - in Y2A Bwl : WE enters to the eye formed by one leg (in the way different to the Ashley's Loop which I posted in KM 137). To be more secure, the WE should be a round turn instead of just a turn as previous presented. I revised it to 'New Y2A Bowline' and present here. Please refer to this 'New' comer.
in Y3A Bwl : WE goes between two legs and enters to the eye formed by one leg.
in Yia Bwl : WE tucks in the way of a marlingspike to the Marlingspike Hitch. Finished with a round turn to obtain security though a turn is good for the purpose.

Jamming - Y2A & Y3A Bwls : not sure, because Overhand Knot tightens/encircling/binding the rope not in it's centre eye, but in one of the opening.
Yia Bwl : not sure, because Marlingspike Hitch is used and a round turn WE tucking (can be tied loosely or tight).

Untying - knocking down the collar and nipping loop.

Here are the photos showing the 'New Y2A Bowline'.



Happy knotting
yChan

« Last Edit: August 20, 2018, 04:28:19 AM by siriuso »

siriuso

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Re: yChan's Knot - Yia Bowline
« Reply #9 on: August 21, 2018, 10:15:09 AM »
Hi Mark,

The start of this knot is using a Marlingspike Hitch in the way that is clearly presented in my preivous thread. Just now you have presented us with a start with an upside down one, that is different from mine. Of couse you got a virtual one and how to compare. Please analyze mine and follow the tuckings, thanks.

yChan

siriuso

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Re: yChan's Knot - Yia Loop Knot
« Reply #10 on: August 21, 2018, 06:16:37 PM »
Hi dear all,

Up to now, I have received comments mostly focus on my knots' names because I named them bowlines. Upon the comments made by our fellow expert members, these knots are not qualified as Bowline. I concur with their opinions based on some well observed definitions. So I modified these post titles, and hope to receive more comments on these Loop Knots.

Happy Knotting
yChan