New Hitches

[J.Knoop]

As threatened I'd be back with some more ideas on Knots and Memes. The reference to the trucker's doily still eludes me,
but there are some other net-references to memes and knots, which can readily be posted.

The Windsor Knot[\b] being transmitted as cultural entity:

• http://cfpm.org/jom-emit/1999/vol3/wilkins_j.html [\li]
  
  • http://cfpm.org/jom-emit/1999/vol3/speel_h-c.html [\li]
    [\list]
    
    Tim Tyler on the Reef Knot[\b] being transmitted, not by means of imitation, but by means of representations across successive generations.
    [http://alife.co.uk/essays/misunderstandings_within_memetics/]:
    
    

    I do not think this idea is a good one. To see why, consider the meme of a "reef knot". This meme can be passed on across five consecutive generations by drawing a diagram of a knot, then by knotting a rope, then by a textual description, then by making a computer model - and then by making a sculpture.
    
    However, in such a case, it is not the behaviour that is being copied - the behaviour associated with making a computer model of the knot is not remotely similar to the behaviour associated with writing a textual description of it.
    
    Since imitation is, by definition, copying of behaviour, the term cannot legitimately be applied to such cases.
    
    The copier may not even see who they are copying. Rather they may reconstruct the behaviour of tying a knot from the knot itself. Is it still imitation if you reconstruct a behaviour from an artefact produced by that behaviour? If so, it is hardly a conventional form of imitation.
    
    In my view, it is best to avoid any mention of imitation when defining memes - the idea is irrelevant and causes confusion. The copying of heritable information is the key underlying phenomenon - the details of how that copying is done is a side issue.

    
    As for Dan's question in the Scouting Ashley thread: how to prevent sick knot memes from spreading?
    
    
    Joop Knoop.
     
    

[Dan_Lehman]

Joop, please nb:  this forum's HTML formatters do not use '\'  but rather '/'.
Seems you have much of former, hence, misformatted.
Also, there are some potential *shortcuts* in termination, which can be exploited
or not:  e.g., I've found (the accidental way) that an '[/i]' closure will also close
underlining (so some few keystrokes can be spared).  There are likely other cases,
and I think that closing a quote will terminate within-quoted text formatters.

BTW, I've not usually used the clickable formatting buttons (which seem to
just spit out some formatters between which one must then move to write), but
type them.  If you're clicking and getting the backslashes, then ... hmmmm !
 

[J.Knoop]

Oops, I did it again and I'm not even a blond Britney, but a bald Joop.....
Soooo sorry for this confusion, but then again, isn't confusion just part & parcel of our subject? Right, Dan?

Anyway, what I tried to post earlier today was:

The Windsor Knot being transmitted as cultural entity:

• http://cfpm.org/jom-emit/1999/vol3/wilkins_j.html
• http://cfpm.org/jom-emit/1999/vol3/speel_h-c.html

Tim Tyler on the Reef Knot being transmitted, not by means of imitation, but by means of representations across successive generations. Barking at Sue Blackmore, a devout follower of Richard Dawkins:  [http://alife.co.uk/essays/misunderstandings_within_memetics/]:

I do not think this idea is a good one. To see why, consider the meme of a "reef knot". This meme can be passed on across five consecutive generations by drawing a diagram of a knot, then by knotting a rope, then by a textual description, then by making a computer model - and then by making a sculpture.

However, in such a case, it is not the behaviour that is being copied - the behaviour associated with making a computer model of the knot is not remotely similar to the behaviour associated with writing a textual description of it.

Since imitation is, by definition, copying of behaviour, the term cannot legitimately be applied to such cases.

The copier may not even see who they are copying. Rather they may reconstruct the behaviour of tying a knot from the knot itself. Is it still imitation if you reconstruct a behaviour from an artefact produced by that behaviour? If so, it is hardly a conventional form of imitation.

In my view, it is best to avoid any mention of imitation when defining memes - the idea is irrelevant and causes confusion. The copying of heritable information is the key underlying phenomenon - the details of how that copying is done is a side issue.

The Trucker's Doilly is in Peter Richerson and Richard Boyd's Not by Genes Alone, Chicago University Press 2005, pp75. Google has this book available at:  http://books.google.nl/books?id=dU-KtEVgK6sC&dq=richerson+boyd+genes+alone&printsec=frontcover&source=bn&hl=nl&ei=6_tpSv_lO43J-QbfrpmMCw&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=4

Their meme discussion touching knots runs from pp63-75. Their Bowline quote p63 is immortal:

[A Bowline] as simple as it is, almost no one invents such a clever knot.

Joop Knoop.
 

[siriuso]

Hi Dan and Sweeney,

I am still interested to know the assessment of the Alove Hitch.

yChan

[Dan_Lehman]

Hi Dan and Sweeney,

I am still interested to know the assessment of the Alove Hitch.

yChan

My, this IS an old one!   

Per knot, I find the hitch not so good --vulnerable
to distorting and even slipping (around relatively larger
objects).  Stopping short of the final tuck is much
better; and if a further tuck is wanted, take the tail
OVER the non-SPart wrap and tuck back under.

--dl*
====

[Sweeney]

This works for me - nice hitch with that second tuck.

Sweeney

[siriuso]

Hi Dan and Sweeney,

I can't get to your hitches, can you show me the pictures. Thanks.

yChan

[Dan_Lehman]

I can't get to your hitches, can you show me the pictures. Thanks.

"Get to ...", you've already gotten there --the blue
arrow and Spar hitch (which is a better knot than
the picket-line/ground-line hitch).  To that, I said,
one might take the tail for another tuck,
over and then tucked under the non-SPart turn
around the spar --which is the part your knot
tucks under last.

But "better" judgments so far made here are coming
without any specified constraints on a particular use
--on materials & tying need.


--dl*
====

[siriuso]

Hi Dan and Sweeney,

Thanks for your opinion on the Alove Hitch. I will keep this Alove Hitch to myself.

yChan