Author Topic: Bidirectional Icicle hitch  (Read 934 times)

David R

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Bidirectional Icicle hitch
« on: March 24, 2018, 02:33:15 AM »
Hi all,

I just joined the forum after several months of reading old posts. Not long ago, I ran across a comment Dan Lehman posted in July of 2010 (see link below). His suggestions for improving the camel hitch (ABoK 1741) inspired some creative fiddling that's led to something I'm calling a Bidirectional Icicle (Bicicle for short).

I started by making a few wraps in one direction, and followed with a riding turn back past the starting point. I finished back in the middle, with a loop around the SP, like in the icicle hitch. The end is nipped by passing under the riding turn, and then passes through the loop alongside the SP, again, just like the icicle hitch.

I find that this knot snugs up well, and it seems to resist pull in both directions. And like the icicle hitch, it unties easily. Of course, in my photo, you may recognize the cardboard tube I've tied the knot around. Not exactly the ideal testing setup, I admit. But back and shoulder injuries, combined with small living quarters, leave me unable to give the knot a real-world testing.

In any event, I wanted to share this. It's hard for me to think of this as a "new" not, since I'm only recombining elements of existing knots . Nevertheless I'm hoping it's useful. What do you think?

By the way, Dan, if you're reading this, I had intended to run this past you before posting, but I find myself unable to send PMs. If you're interested, I'd be happy to share a photo of what I'm calling Lehmans Camel, though I'm not certain I followed your instructions properly.

Be well,
David

https://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=1889.msg13640#msg13640

knotsaver

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Re: Bidirectional Icicle hitch
« Reply #1 on: March 26, 2018, 09:58:03 AM »
Hi David and welcome,


In any event, I wanted to share this.


and you did the right thing! ;) Please share the Camel Hitch variation too.

Quote
It's hard for me to think of this as a "new" not, since I'm only recombining elements of existing knots . Nevertheless I'm hoping it's useful. What do you think?


Your Hitch variation combines a Clove (a Rolling) and a Cow Hitch in someway, its asymmetry (with reference to the transversal rope) could cause a different behaviour/performance of the Hitch according to how you pull.  It reminded me of another combination of Clove and Cow proposed by Xarax with 4 wraps, please have a look


(https://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=5376.0)

(maybe you have already read this post).
The combination of elements of existing knots allows us to discovery "new" knots ;)
[edit]
I have tied a few more times your Hitch and depending on the material used it performs differently...compared with Xarax Double Clove Hitch I think it loses
[/edit]
Ciao,
s.
« Last Edit: March 26, 2018, 05:34:41 PM by knotsaver »

David R

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Re: Bidirectional Icicle hitch
« Reply #2 on: March 27, 2018, 07:36:25 AM »
Hi David and welcome,
In any event, I wanted to share this.
and you did the right thing! ;) Please share the Camel Hitch variation too.

Thank you, knotsaver! I appreciate your enthusiastic welcome. I'll share the Camel variation in a separate post.

Your Hitch variation combines a Clove (a Rolling) and a Cow Hitch in someway, its asymmetry (with reference to the transversal rope) could cause a different behaviour/performance of the Hitch according to how you pull.  It reminded me of another combination of Clove and Cow proposed by Xarax with 4 wraps, please have a look


(https://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=5376.0)

(maybe you have already read this post).

Oh, I hadn't thought of it that way. My only goal was to put the finishing steps of the icicle knot come at the center instead of the end.

Thanks for the link. I hadn't seen this post before. Interesting looking knot!

I have tied a few more times your Hitch and depending on the material used it performs differently...compared with Xarax Double Clove Hitch I think it loses

I'm disappointed to hear the knot doesn't perform as well in other materials. But not at all surprised that Xarax has already created something better!

One of the shocking things about returning to the world of knots has been to discover just how much the field has been changed by modern synthetic cords! Was I ever surprised to find that the bowline needed to be redesigned in order to be safe for climbing!

OK, Camel to come...
« Last Edit: March 28, 2018, 06:25:21 AM by David R »

David R

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Re: Bidirectional Icicle hitch
« Reply #3 on: March 27, 2018, 07:57:35 AM »
Since this knot was inspired by a comment that Dan Lehman made, I've been thinking of it as Lehman's Camel. But it's quite possible I didn't follow his directions, and he may prefer to disown it, in which case I'll have to rename it.

In the post linked below, Dan suggested an alternate finish to the Camel: instead of the usual two half hitches, "turn the tail in the opposite direction, come back around on the away side from the knot (making no Half-hitch), and then turn around your tail and go around to bring the tail out through this turn so that the turn/bight nips it against the lead into this "Reverse Cow" finish.  The nipping is sure, and even increased by loading the structure's SPart."
https://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=1889.msg13640#msg13640

Below you'll find a photo of my attempt to do as Dan suggested. You'll notice that this knot features wraps going one direction away from the SP, with a riding turn that brings the end to the opposite side. The end is nipped by the next-to-last loop  before emerging alongside the SP as they pass through the riding turn.

Of course, like the Bidirectional Icicle, I haven't been able to test this properly, so it may not in fact be a "practical" knot after all...

Dan_Lehman

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Re: Bidirectional Icicle hitch
« Reply #4 on: March 27, 2018, 10:13:44 PM »
By the way, Dan, if you're reading this, I had intended to run this past you before posting, but I find myself unable to send PMs. If you're interested, I'd be happy to share a photo of what I'm calling Lehmans Camel, though I'm not certain I followed your instructions properly.

Hi, David.  Thanks for trying, but I don't see my words
in your knot.  Putting new words out for consideration,
whereas the camel hitch --if I'm believing what's been
written, not so recently attentive to its various presentations--
can be said to be a coil finished with a clove hitch (vs. the
usual mere half-hitch), I first recommended trading the 2nd
H-H which makes the clove for a stopper knot (overhand e.g.)
in the tail (after all, if this first HH isn't secure, how secure will
a 2nd one be?).
Then --where you seem to have taken flight from fact into fancy  ::) --
I offered an alternative finish where the 2 HHs would essentially
for a cow hitch but such it was, um, *pointed inwards* as
a buntline h. vs. two HHs (both being "cloves" but
flipped-around versions of each other.  This reversal will capture
the tail within the knotting rather than have it outermost.

As for what you show, although it might work in some conditions,
there seems well too little wrapping for effect, vulnerability to the
too-brief coil being pressed against (vs. pulled into) by the draw
of the collar on the away coil (presumably with an untensioned
end), and ... .

This is a risk of Ivory Tower knot finding :: solving an unknown problem
(or none at all),
in contrast to some application in need ... !

Cheers,
--dl*
====

David R

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Re: Bidirectional Icicle hitch
« Reply #5 on: March 28, 2018, 06:19:33 AM »
By the way, Dan, if you're reading this, I had intended to run this past you before posting, but I find myself unable to send PMs. If you're interested, I'd be happy to share a photo of what I'm calling Lehmans Camel, though I'm not certain I followed your instructions properly.
Hi, David.  Thanks for trying, but I don't see my words in your knot. 

Well, I guess I can call it Rosen's Misunderstanding!

When I started to re-explore the subject of knotting, I was really just trying to build a reasonable repertoire of useful knots. But I seem to have fallen down a rabbit hole since then! There are so many interesting knots!

The biggest challenge I face is that it's hard for me to tell which knots are the really good ones. And there seem to be so many differences of opinion, even on this forum. I regret that my ivory tower doesn't have a really good knot-testing facility in the basement!

Thanks for your interest,
David
« Last Edit: March 28, 2018, 06:21:34 AM by David R »