Author Topic: why are mirrored knots so hard to tie  (Read 1494 times)

Knutern

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why are mirrored knots so hard to tie
« on: March 06, 2018, 09:46:46 PM »
Hi forum.

I have try to learn some knots, and I do tie knots from time to time without no reason just because I won't forget.

But, I have also experienced that if I learn a knot, that is any knot - If I try to tie a mirrored variant of the same knot - I most often got stuck. To overcome this brain limitation, I need to tie two knots simoultaneously - the normal oriented knot and the mirrored variant.

Any thaughts of why it is so difficult tying mirror variants of knots?
I'm aiming for knots that is secure, AND that is easy to untie.

agent_smith

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Re: why are mirrored knots so hard to tie
« Reply #1 on: March 07, 2018, 12:00:05 AM »
Hi Knutern,

When you say 'mirrored variant' of the same knot, are you thinking along the lines of the attached images?
Just want to make sure I am understanding you 100% correctly.

Mark G
« Last Edit: March 07, 2018, 12:03:14 AM by agent_smith »

Knutern

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Re: why are mirrored knots so hard to tie
« Reply #2 on: March 07, 2018, 06:27:45 PM »
Yes, and all kind of hitches too actually.

I had to try to make a boom hitch - mirrored variant, but man o man how I did not get it properly done  ::)
I do think that must be the easiest hitch that still get difficult to tie mirrored.

Well - not to mention the sailor hitch. Also a relatively simple hitch that I need several attempts on tying a mirror variant before success.
I'm aiming for knots that is secure, AND that is easy to untie.

agent_smith

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Re: why are mirrored knots so hard to tie
« Reply #3 on: March 08, 2018, 06:32:10 AM »
One way to tie a mirrored version of a particular knot is to find an image and then copy it and then find a 'rotate' command and 'flip horizontal'.
See attached images as an example.
I had an image of a boom hitch. I copied the image and then flipped horizontal.
By doing this - you have a sort of road map to work with...just follow the flipped image.
I don't know if you have a PC or MAC computer but, its easy to do this.

If you don't have a computer, then try holding the knot up to a mirror to help visualize what you need to do.

Mark G

Knutern

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Re: why are mirrored knots so hard to tie
« Reply #4 on: March 08, 2018, 10:43:48 PM »
Yes - I do have ability to mirror images. But - have this feeling that it's kind of cheat (just like in computer games) so it is not really the solution I look for - whenever I am in a tying situation I probably ar not close to a computer anyway  ;)

I'm more tempting to have an discussion about the thinking about mirrored knot versions and see if there is a sort of thinking that make the mirrored knotting attempts more likely to succeed  :o
I'm aiming for knots that is secure, AND that is easy to untie.

roo

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Re: why are mirrored knots so hard to tie
« Reply #5 on: March 08, 2018, 10:52:54 PM »
I'm more tempting to have an discussion about the thinking about mirrored knot versions and see if there is a sort of thinking that make the mirrored knotting attempts more likely to succeed  :o
I must admit that I don't often have a need to tie mirrored versions of knots.  Decorative knotters would probably have more of a need.

Proficiency would likely come with practice in much the same way one could learn to write mirror image letters.  It'll be painful at first, but become second nature in time.  Sleep on it after short practice sessions, and your brain will adapt.

It would be interesting to see if switching hand roles for mirrored tying would help.

« Last Edit: March 08, 2018, 10:56:16 PM by roo »
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NautiKnots

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Re: why are mirrored knots so hard to tie
« Reply #6 on: March 14, 2018, 02:15:23 PM »
It would be interesting to see if switching hand roles for mirrored tying would help.
I firmly believe it would.

As a sailing instructor, I've taught a lot of people to tie basic knots.  I've observed that right-handed people (such as myself) tend to hold a knot in their left hand, and manipulate it with their right.  In doing so, they instinctively form right-handed versions of knots.  Left-handed people want to hold the knot in their right hand and manipulate it with their left.  Trying to copy a right-handed instructor, however, is quite difficult and frustrating because all of the natural motions are backwards.  Most of the left-handed sailors I know switch their dominant hand and tie their knots like right-handed people - I believe because they were taught by righties.

With that in mind, I set out several years ago to teach myself to switch hands.  I broke down the motions, swapped counterclockwise (right-handed) for clockwise (left-handed), and figured out how to teach knot tying left-handed.  I now ask my students whether they are right- or left-handed, and offer to teach the left-handed people the left-handed (mirror image) versions of the knots.  I've considered making a "knots for lefties" video series, showing how to tie S-chiral knots with the left hand dominant.

Regards,
Eric

Lasse_C

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Re: why are mirrored knots so hard to tie
« Reply #7 on: April 30, 2018, 09:56:59 PM »
I believe you are correct, Eric.
Being a leftie myself I have noticed that a mirror-image knot comes more natural to me. On more complex knots that are hard to learn I often scan the pictures from the instruction and flip the image. Luckily, I have a fair ambidextrous ability, allowing me to work with the "wrong" hand too.

Dan_Lehman

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Re: why are mirrored knots so hard to tie
« Reply #8 on: April 30, 2018, 11:11:22 PM »
Sometimes one can help overcome problems for mirroring
knots by remembering tying instructions in an unbiased
form.  E.g., the farmer's loop when tied by the method
of putting the rope over one's holding hand thrice can go:
  • Center part over either side;
  • new-center over opp. side;
  • repeat #1
  • pull new (=original) center up as the eye.

--dl*
====

siriuso

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Re: why are mirrored knots so hard to tie
« Reply #9 on: May 01, 2018, 09:14:41 AM »
Hi,

In "My Working Notes", most of the tying methods of the bends are included mirrored finished bends. Such as, start with opposite ends, make overhand loops and finish the bend. We get the "right hand one". By start with the same opposite ends, make underhand loops, and finish the bend. We get the mirrored one.

yChan

NautiKnots

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Re: why are mirrored knots so hard to tie
« Reply #10 on: May 01, 2018, 01:16:07 PM »
Such as, start with opposite ends, make overhand loops and finish the bend. We get the "right hand one". By start with the same opposite ends, make underhand loops, and finish the bend. We get the mirrored one
That method generally works for tying left (S) chiral knots with the right hand.  Left-handed people will more naturally tie s-chiral knots by reversing direction (clockwise for counterclockwise) than swapping underhand for overhand.

Regards,
Eric
« Last Edit: May 01, 2018, 01:26:36 PM by NautiKnots »

Knutern

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Re: why are mirrored knots so hard to tie
« Reply #11 on: May 01, 2018, 02:19:35 PM »
Think I've figured out the types of knots that is the most difficult to tye mirrored variant of - for me at least. That is hitches supposed to be tying around poles where you have a number of changes of direction and number of overlaps, such as Camel hitch and sailor hitch.
I'm aiming for knots that is secure, AND that is easy to untie.

Hrungnir

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Re: why are mirrored knots so hard to tie
« Reply #12 on: May 20, 2018, 02:01:11 PM »
What is also difficult is tying knots upside down.

Have you tried tying a bowline to a ring bolt in the ceiling? In such cases I often go for a hitch instead  ;D

knotsaver

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Re: why are mirrored knots so hard to tie
« Reply #13 on: May 21, 2018, 11:26:10 AM »
What is also difficult is tying knots upside down.

Have you tried tying a bowline to a ring bolt in the ceiling? In such cases I often go for a hitch instead  ;D

Really?  :o
it depends on the method you use, if you are able to tie a hitch try using ABoK #1716 (the Bowline Hitch (sailor's method)). You can find this method in The Morrow Guide to Knots (M.Bigon, G. Regazzoni) as the casting method (p.72). Or you can use the "with a rope under tension" method (Morrow Guide, p.80), (something similar is shown in ABoK #2550).
 ;)
Ciao,
s.