Author Topic: Unknown eye knot (derived from #1024)  (Read 1331 times)

agent_smith

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Unknown eye knot (derived from #1024)
« on: January 31, 2018, 04:27:44 PM »
While playing around with re-threading #1009 / #1046 (simple overhand eye knot) to an object, I stumbled upon this structure.
Tied in Sterling 8mm accessory cord, it seems to be secure and stable but, this is based on very limited analysis.
I have no idea of its resistance to jamming or what its jamming load threshold is.

I surmise that Xarax or Alan Lee has probably tied this before... searching this forum is not straightforward.

Anyhow, it does seem interesting but is a bit fiddly to dress (maybe until I get used to it or find a better tying method).

By the way, it is TIB (tiable in the bight)!

IMPORTANT EDIT NOTES (please read before posting a reply)
1. This eye knot is purely experimental - nothing more and nothing less.
2. This eye knot is NOT intended for mission critical  human life support applications - such as a tie-in knot for climbing.
3. This eye knot appears to be vulnerable to jamming - so it will never compete with secure Bowlines derivatives
4. This eye knot - in its purely experimental form - appears to only function with human-rated cords/ropes designed for fall-arrest
5. This eye knot requires meticulous attention to detail when dressing and cinching the structure - failure to apply due diligence will likely result in knot failure.
6. This eye knot is posted purely for interest and curiosity - because it does not appear in ABoK - although it is a derivative of #1024 Bowstring knot / Honda knot - it is likely not worth the effort of investing time and energy to either prove or disprove its potential for practical applications. It is likely to remain as a interesting object of discussion - but with no useful practical application.
7. Knot testers are urged to invest their time in investigating more worthy creations such as Scotts locked Bowline or perhaps different rotations of #1410 (Offset overhand bend) - to collect valuable performance data - something which is urgently needed. We still have no clear data points on secure Bowlines with 3 rope diameters inside the nipping loop (relative to common #1010 Bowline which has 2 rope diameters inside nipping loop).
8. And finally, this eye knot was never intended to be tied with dyneema, monofilament or paracord - its experimental inception was strictly intended for EN892 or EN564 cordage.
9. Amen!
« Last Edit: February 02, 2018, 02:46:14 AM by agent_smith »

knotsaver

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Re: Unknown eye knot
« Reply #1 on: January 31, 2018, 05:49:20 PM »
Mark,
I don't know its name and if it was already tied, however it is a (TIB) retucked Honda (ABoK #1024), so I believe that it is secure and stable...about the resistance to jamming, I think that the Overhand is the problem.
[edit] You have to dress it well, because it could show the same issue as the Yosemite Bowline.
Ciao,
s.
p.s. I like the Honda knot and I usually retuck it in a #523 fashion (and if I want a multiloop I retuck more and more times), perhaps it is more resistant to jamming but it is not TIB
« Last Edit: January 31, 2018, 06:09:33 PM by knotsaver »

Harold Kahl

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Re: Unknown eye knot
« Reply #2 on: January 31, 2018, 11:06:15 PM »
I think you need one of those skull and crossbones pics for this one. I tied it in paracord and pulled one leg of the eye, and the tail pulled out.

roo

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Re: Unknown eye knot
« Reply #3 on: January 31, 2018, 11:19:21 PM »
I think you need one of those skull and crossbones pics for this one. I tied it in paracord and pulled one leg of the eye, and the tail pulled out.
I think I see what you experienced.  A certain form shift can make the rope end's path more direct and cause slippage.  Good catch.
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agent_smith

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Re: Unknown eye knot
« Reply #4 on: February 01, 2018, 12:15:20 AM »
Quote
I think you need one of those skull and crossbones pics for this one. I tied it in paracord and pulled one leg of the eye, and the tail pulled out.

I have tied this eye knot using Sterling USA 8.0mm diameter high strength accessory cord.
I have also tied it using EN892 dynamic Beal 'Joker' 9.1mm rope.

In both of these ropes, I have found the knot to be stable and secure.

Note that the dressing is to a state where the knot is cinched very tight and 'symmetrical'.

I have been unsuccessful in attempting to replicate the failure mode you posted in the human-rated rope materials I have identified.

#1024 (Honda/Bowstring knot) functions as a 'noose' - this one is an eye knot (fixed eye). Presumably it could be regarded as #1024 derived instead of #1046 derived.

...

Be that as it may, in my original post - I did make it quite clear that this is essentially an experimental knot and one that I have not exhaustively tested. However, in playing around with the Sterling 8.0mm and Beal Joker 9.1mm knot versions, I can induce no failure mode. On that basis, I think it is premature to declare the knot insecure or unstable.

I unfortunately agree with knotsaver in that is not jam resistant.

EDITED: Grammar corrections...
« Last Edit: February 01, 2018, 12:16:12 AM by agent_smith »

knotsaver

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Re: Unknown eye knot
« Reply #5 on: February 01, 2018, 12:35:18 AM »
...just as it is derived from the Honda (#1024) it is vulnerable to ring loading, yes...and this is what Harold Kahl noticed...however with "normal" loading  I think it can work.
Ciao,
s.

agent_smith

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Re: Unknown eye knot
« Reply #6 on: February 01, 2018, 01:09:50 AM »
Quote
it is vulnerable to ring loading

I am unsuccessful in trying to replicate these failure modes.

Note again:
1. I am using Sterling 8.0mm high strength accessory cord
2. I am also using Beal 'Joker' EN892 dynamic 9.1mm rope
3. The knot is cinched as tight as I can by hand
4. I paid close attention to dressing
5. I have not used para-cord (I don't use para cord as a rule because I am a climber and the only cords/ropes I use are human-rated for fall protection)

EDIT NOTE: I have also just tied this eye knot using EN892 Beal 'Opera' 8.5mm rope - and was unsuccessful in trying to replicate the failure modes others have reported.
Note again that I cinched the knot structure very tight and paid close attention to dressing detail.


...

Given the above strict parameters, I can induce no particular failure in any of my human-rated cords/ropes.
Note again that I do not use para-cord.

However, the deal=breaker for me is that i believe this eye knot is prone to jamming.
That is, it is not jam resistant.

Mark G

« Last Edit: February 01, 2018, 01:24:27 AM by agent_smith »

Harold Kahl

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Re: Unknown eye knot
« Reply #7 on: February 01, 2018, 07:00:17 AM »
I made this video to show the failure mode. Admittedly, the knot is not very well dressed and set. It doesn't do this if both legs of the eye are pulled with equal tension, like when you tie the loop around an object, and pull on the standing part.

https://youtu.be/sewV9d3EfUM

agent_smith

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Re: Unknown eye knot
« Reply #8 on: February 01, 2018, 09:25:53 AM »
Quote
Admittedly, the knot is not very well dressed and set.

I left wondering what the point of your post and video is then?
Hmmmm.

There are many eye knots that can be left loosely / poorly dressed and exhibit unpredictable behavior (eg #1410 left poorly dressed and/or not cinched tight can lead to catastrophic failure - but when properly cinched and dressed, it works fine).

Can try again using climbing rated cord/rope in the 8mm or higher domain - and this time cinch the knot tight and pay close attention to proper dressing.

I want to make it 100% crystal clear that I do not warrant this eye knot for use as a tie-in knot to a harness for climbing applications.
This knot was simply an experiment - something I stumbled upon while fiddling with offset overhand eye knots.

Again, I am left scratching my head as to what point you were attempting to make?

knotsaver

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Re: Unknown eye knot
« Reply #9 on: February 01, 2018, 09:30:20 AM »
...
Admittedly, the knot is not very well dressed and set.

no please, you can't dress the knot in this way!
It is true that the knot is not "self dressing".

Quote
it is vulnerable to ring loading

I am unsuccessful in trying to replicate these failure modes.


Mark,
I used a Nylon monofilament! (I'm not joking)...if I have to test quickly something I tied it using monofilament...however it can fail ( above all for ring loading) with other kind of rope too I think. It's good that the rope for climbing is in someway more resistant to slippage (do you remember the discussion about the false/anti Myrtle?)
The relative Bend in monofilament slips.
(My version (vulnarable to ring loading too) is the loop based on Xarax's Blackwall Hitch Bend)

However Mark there are other eyes to fall in love with  ;)  :)
Ciao,
s.

agent_smith

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Re: Unknown eye knot
« Reply #10 on: February 01, 2018, 10:01:54 AM »
I wont be giving up using Scott's locked Bowline or EBSB Bowline or Lees Link Bowline.

Look - I have 3 tied samples of this eye knot derived from #1024.
[ ] tied in 8.0mm Sterling high strength cord
[ ] tied in EN892 8.5mm Beal 'Opera' climbing rope
[ ] tied in EN892 9.1mm Beal 'Joker' climbing rope.

Now please read very carefully!
1. I paid very close attention to dressing - perfectly dressed
2. I have cinched the knot very tightly by hand

Now, given all of the above parameters, I am unable to reproduce any of the failure modes reported by others.

I would say that other 'testers' are not dressing the knot correctly or they have not cinched it very tight.
Or, they are using cord that is very slick and/or not a human rated cord/rope for climbing.

Monofilament, dyneema and paracord are simply outside the scope of what I had in mind with this experimental eye knot.
It was just an experiment - it is unlikely to ever gain popularity or rise to other great eye knots such as Scotts locked Bowline or Lees link Bowline or the zeppelin eye knot.

In fact, I think its just a novelty - another derived eye knot.

knotsaver

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Re: Unknown eye knot
« Reply #11 on: February 01, 2018, 11:36:01 AM »
I wont be giving up using Scott's locked Bowline or EBSB Bowline or Lees Link Bowline.

 :D

About the dressing, it is very important to dress it well!

By the way you can rearrange the Working End parallel to the Standing Part but from the other side and the reverse eye ( Standing-Working swap) will be a retucked bowline (not the best retuck).
The nub is similar to that of the Angler's Loop (ABoK #1017).

Quote
Monofilament, dyneema and paracord are simply outside the scope of what I had in mind with this experimental eye knot.
It was just an experiment - it is unlikely to ever gain popularity or rise to other great eye knots such as Scotts locked Bowline or Lees link Bowline or the zeppelin eye knot.

In fact, I think its just a novelty - another derived eye knot.

Mark, I believe what you say and as I said with normal (not ring) loading I think it can work with Nylon too (well dressed obviously), but I think that by using other (more slipping) rope we can better understand the structure of the knot.
Ciao,
s.

Harold Kahl

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Re: Unknown eye knot
« Reply #12 on: February 01, 2018, 12:07:26 PM »
Quote
Admittedly, the knot is not very well dressed and set.

I left wondering what the point of your post and video is then?
Hmmmm.

I had it dressed better than that when I first tied it and it slipped. I dressed it looser for the video just to show the failure mechanism since you said you couldn't reproduce it. It doesn't seem like a very secure knot to me, and makes me wonder what it would do with more pulling tension. I've seen knots move around quite a bit in the break testing videos.

agent_smith

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Re: Unknown eye knot
« Reply #13 on: February 01, 2018, 12:22:19 PM »
Harold,

Clearly and obviously it is one or a combination of the following:
1. the type of material you are using - it cant be the cord/rope that I specified several times (did you read my previous posts?)
2. there might be a difference in how we set and dress knots - I'm a climber with more than 30 years of almost continuous experience - so I am accustomed to paying meticulous attention to small details - so I may be achieving a higher precision in dressing (although this is just pure speculation).
3. I have repeated several times that I am using 8.0mm cord or greater diameters - in human-rated cordage (eg EN892 dynamic rope).

I state for the record gain - that I cannot reproduce your failure modes.
I think therein lies the key to the puzzle...I am using human-rated cordage designed for fall arrest and I am achieving high precision dressing and cinching of the knot.

The video you uploaded proves nothing in my view.
May I suggest that you try again - with larger diameter human-rated fall-arrest cordage and really pay attention to dressing and cinching the knot very tight before initiating any attempt to induce failure. That is, set and dress the knot tightly and with precision - then pause - then attempt to induce failure.
I would be keen to see another video from you where all of these salient points are accurately followed.

Oh, one more thing...I was very clear that the eye knot is experimental - it is purely an exercise in experimentation, nothing more. Did you realize that?
« Last Edit: February 01, 2018, 12:24:50 PM by agent_smith »

roo

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Re: Unknown eye knot
« Reply #14 on: February 01, 2018, 04:20:38 PM »
I think it's generally a good idea to anticipate some reasonable variations in real life use of a knot.

Think of all the various dressings of the fairly simple Figure Eight loop.  There are a lot of them.  Various dressings may be had by some combination of luck, tyer haste, inadvertent pressure or impact during or after tying, etc. 

Now imagine if one of those dressings caused the loop to fail.  It probably wouldn't get recommended for critical use, nor would users feel very confident in using it. 
« Last Edit: February 01, 2018, 05:28:28 PM by roo »
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