Author Topic: Anti-Bowline(tail inside eye),Eskimo Bowline(tail inside eye) or "Cossack" ?  (Read 3747 times)

alanleeknots

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Hi All,  I found a Bowline transformation video done by a Russian knot Tyer Vasiliy Smirnov, I show him I have done the same thing before, and he exchanges his knots site.
          Since Vasiliy Smirnov already has his video, it reminds me I have my Bowline transformation photos in the forum, is about time to have my videos and show how I tie these knots.
          Vasiliy Smirnov claim that the Eskimo bowline in my videos should call "Cossack" under Russia name. If it is true that Russian have discovered this knot, I think we should give them the credit, and have the name "Cossack" instead of Eskimo bowline.  Any one have the history of " Cossack " knot, please let me know, I will make the correction.  謝謝 alanlee.

http://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=4276.0

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=btjYvFrakqw

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P2EswyWPiWA

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bLoZN4yEDdg

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iZ5icfuwmmA

Dan_Lehman

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Hi All,  I found a Bowline transformation video done by a Russian knot Tyer Vasiliy Smirnov, I show him I have done the same thing before, and he exchanges his knots site.
Me too, and note that with the "tail-inside",
common bowline, it matters on which side
of the eye one brings the tail out to (in a continuous
set of transformations in the bight)!  It's possible
to take a facing-upwards knot to facing opposite
--which would be a neat trick to play on someone
with an ends-anchored line containing such a knot.   :o

(Doing such topological transformations can be extremely
frustrating if one doesn't keep good account of one's moves:
you come up with form-B from form-A and ... , but struggle
to repeat the action, not knowing which moves you'd made!
I had trouble even with the relatively simple changes to
a "figure 9" knot into two symmetric orientations.   :-\
)
Quote
  Vasiliy Smirnov claim that the Eskimo bowline in my videos should call "Cossack" under Russia name. If it is true that Russian have discovered this knot, I think we should give them the credit, and have the name "Cossack" instead of Eskimo bowline.
That they might have discovered the knot (for themselves)
doesn't preclude Eskimos from having done the same;
as to who did so first, that evidence might be frozen
out of reach --or might predate any notion of states.


--dl*
====

KC

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i think on a normal Bowline, tail in is the most correct,immediate, intensest Nip on tail;
>>sandwiched between primary forces, giving both Nip tension and hard Nip surface requirements
>>tail outside eye; is  not in sandwich between equal and opposite primary pulls;
>>loss of highest  tension and hardest surface components to Nip tail with.
.
BUT, in anti-Bowline where what was once the SPart is now a 2nd/long tail;
>>direction of pull from inline to that position to cross-axis
>>would likewise anti- the tail position to outside ring VISUALLY;
BUT really mechanically the same sandwich between primary pulls (now across eye) is achieved as most proper
>>modifying/upgrading Nip Loop from simple Turn, to RT pretty  much corrects problem in all cases.
>>RT gives more, firm Nip all around tail
>>note again, standard Bowline : 1 pull down eye/1tail, Russian Eskimo has 2pulls across eye, and 2 tails!
.
i first l-earned this form as simply 'jacked' Bowline w/o nationality
>>perhaps even finding that most descriptive
>>but this rose is the same, by any name!
.
Do we rush so to take blame if a knot fails?
« Last Edit: December 17, 2017, 12:26:17 PM by KC »
Rope-n-Saw Life
"Nature, to be commanded, must be obeyed" -Sir Francis Bacon
We now return you to the safety of normal thinking peoples.
~ Please excuse the interruption; thanx -the mgmt.~

Dan_Lehman

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i think on a normal Bowline, tail in is the most correct,immediate, intensest Nip on tail;

I disagree : the "left-handed" one will see the draw of
the loaded SPart bite hard(er) into the tail, as it brings
it around the returning eye-leg; whereas the common
one draws the tail into a sort of less-hard nip.  (And
it seems that knot is more prone to capsize, but ... .)

--dl*
====

alanleeknots

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Quote
Quote
  Vasiliy Smirnov claim that the Eskimo bowline in my videos should call "Cossack" under Russia name. If it is true that Russian have discovered this knot, I think we should give them the credit, and have the name "Cossack" instead of Eskimo bowline.

That they might have discovered the knot (for themselves)
doesn't preclude Eskimos from having done the same;
as to who did so first, that evidence might be frozen
out of reach --or might predate any notion of states.
--dl*

Dan, Thanks for your reply.

Quote
Quote from: KC on December 17, 2017, 12:20:30 PM
i think on a normal Bowline, tail in is the most correct,immediate, intensest Nip on tail;

I disagree : the "left-handed" one will see the draw of
the loaded SPart bite hard(er) into the tail, as it brings
it around the returning eye-leg; whereas the common
one draws the tail into a sort of less-hard nip.  (And
it seems that knot is more prone to capsize, but ... .)
--dl*
====

I am with Dan.  謝謝 alanlee

Dan_Lehman

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i think on a normal Bowline, tail in is the most correct,immediate, intensest Nip on tail;

... whereas the common [bowlinep] draws the tail into
a sort of less-hard nip.

Btw, one can position the tail of the knot (either)
in a way that anticipates such movement; I've done
this, aiming to have the tail of the loaded knot
roughly where common drawings show it starting.
Of course, "YMMV" per forces/materials, but I think
that one can often have pretty predictable effect
by such particular dressings.  (E.g., another case
it the infamous "EDK" where one can pull the
choking line's tail farther into an *away* position
from where that knot's draw will rotate it, thus
somewhat putting off its movement to more risky
areas.  (The better approach of course is to use
a better knot --e.g., to make the extended tuck
recommended by Agent_Smith, which pretty well
lock this tail from movement.)


--dl*
====

alanleeknots

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Hi All,
        Smirnor, On your knot forum I use google translate your comment, as below hopefully is correct,
"There is similarity, all spheres are similar. But this has not yet been invented, there is no interlacing inherent in the Turks, the reverse side looks exactly the same, rotated by 1/8 and everything is difficult to describe as. But to tie a knot directly is difficult and no sense. Another thing is if everything is shown in the form of a trick that converts the chat room # 1010 into a ball. I'll show you something. For now, here is the gift of IGKT for Christmas and our knots for the New Year."

Thanks you for your Chistmas gift to IGKT, I believe all members of IGkT would very much appreciate your generosity.
Well, in return, I have New Year gift "Transormation ABOK 1010-ABOK 569 (part2)" to all of you, hope you like it.
WSHING WORLD PEACE

http://www.morehod.ru/forum/paluba/obsuzhdaem-morskie-uzli-t25548-5520.html

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=STtUgf2Mo_k
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H_9th7HowHg

謝謝 alanlee.

alanleeknots

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Hi all,
        Nice video Smirnov, After reading the comment of your video, I guess I have to accept the invitation.
        Here is my video, hope you like it.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MzQb7AXmaKQ&t=67s
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6-Jerj_Qh_o

         謝謝 alanlee.

alanleeknots

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Hi All,
         "Transformation ABOK# 1010 -  ABOK# 569 Part 5" turn out is my favorites knot of the year 2017.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j8tfAZdyzbk

HAPPY NEW YEAR 2018        謝謝 alanlee.

alanleeknots

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Re: BOWLINE TRANSFORMATION
« Reply #9 on: January 02, 2018, 06:18:43 AM »
Hi All,
          Great start for the Year 2018. Here is another beautiful well done knots tying.
          I am very happy with this BOWLINE TRANSFORMATION.           
          Happy New Year 2018, Hope you enjoy the video.

          https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e4C9I8KA8r8

           謝謝 alanlee.

knotsaver

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Hi Alan and happy new year to all!
it's very nice the transformation (you are a magician! ;) ).
 I didn't know the equivalence with the Blimp (ABoK #582).
You could show a reversed Bowline, I mean the yellow part should become the Standing Part (for instance at minute 2 when you return back to the Standard Bowline) and so you could show that the Bowline is an auto-reverse eye!  ;)
Ciao,
s.

agent_smith

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This is inspirational Alan - a great start to 2018 - and it showcases what the human mind can conceive and create.
All done 'TIB' (no access to either end).

I am thinking that some of these transformations should be included in an update to the Bowlines analysis paper.

The relationship between #582 (Blimp knot) and the common Bowline and anti-Bowline is very interesting.

Thank you for your work!

Mark G

alanleeknots

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Hi All, 
         Thanks for all the reply, knotsaver, I am glad you mention reverse Bowline, I find is very easy to reverse a common bowline.
          Here is the video, have time I will make a video for Eskimo bowline transformation.

                  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tB5Svx81eU0
                  謝謝 alanlee.

                 
         

knotsaver

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... I find is very easy to reverse a common bowline.

...I had no doubt!  ;)
and now try reversing the Myrtle!  :)  ;)
(you have to exchange/reverse the chirality of the 2 loops)
You are a magician!
Ciao,
s.
[Edit] p.s. try transforming the Myrtle you will obtain a double Overhand and a "false" Blimp and maybe other knots   ;)
« Last Edit: January 04, 2018, 08:34:07 AM by knotsaver »

smirnov_wasilii

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Topological analysis of sea knots.

While performing topological analysis of sea knots by hand I've found 8 described knots that are isotopic to mathematical knot  6.3:
1. Deadeye Knot ABook #582, Skryagin L. N. Fig.5
2. Monkey chain #596
3. Flat braid # 569
4. Bowline #1010, Skryagin L. N. Fig.76
5. Cossack  bowline ( Kalmyk without bow) (Skryagin L. N. Fig. 97)
6. Adjustable hinge (predecessor bowline ) #1014
7. Two-Strand Lanyard Knots "Double furrier knob" (double Footrope knot)
8. Slip Noose Running noose  #1115