Author Topic: Knot Bio: Zeppelin bend  (Read 6064 times)

agent_smith

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Re: Knot Bio: Zeppelin bend
« Reply #30 on: November 03, 2017, 08:35:20 AM »
from knotsaver...
Quote
Hi Mark,
about the Blimp (please, notice the name!), it should be in a book of G. Budworth...

I need references to cite...also hoping roo can help.
I am a bit overwhelmed at the moment and it is taking too much time and energy to be a blood hound. It would ease my pain if interested persons could just give me the citations - with all the info in one place :)

from knotsaver...
Quote
about the #1062, please notice that the connection of it and the "false" Zeppelin was noticed (I don't know if for the first time) by Mandeville in KM #18 p.12 and it was in his Alphabend the letter/bend "N" ("the Neat 2c New ( Cf. A(BoK) 1062)".
Okay - will amend paper and cite Mandeville - thank you.

from knotsaver...
Quote
Please, say somewhere that the 2 Overhand knots are of different chirality or that they are "unlike-handed" (Mandeville, cited above), whilst the "false" Zeppelin and the Hunter's comprise a pair of "like-handed" Overhand knots.

I am already working on it...am organizing photos tomorrow of the starting base for tying the Zeppelin bend, false Zeppelin bend and #1425A Riggers bend. Will show chirality (handedness) of loops. Thank you for pointing this out, it is interesting and relevant and is necessary for a complete understanding of the Zeppelin bend.

...

I also need details of the background of the Zeppelin eye knot. I know Xarax always points out that if you have tied a bend you by definition have also tied its corresponding eye knot. I have never quite agreed with this position...I think the eye knot version of a bend is a related derivative. For a start - one is an eye knot while the other is an end-to-end joining knot. Loading profile is also different. Hoping that roo can assist - he seems to know a lot about this corresponding eye knot (and it is also featured on his website).

...

As for #1425A Riggers bend - I will agree to write a Knot Bio on this knot only of Dan Lehman agrees to co-author and make a substantial contribution! I feel that I am always doing the lions share of the work and as a result, drawing criticism and attention... I pulled some of the content about #1425A because I am leaving it for a separate paper...

Mark G
« Last Edit: November 03, 2017, 08:37:32 AM by agent_smith »

knotsaver

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Re: Knot Bio: Zeppelin bend
« Reply #31 on: November 03, 2017, 09:45:13 AM »
from knotsaver...
Quote
Hi Mark,
about the Blimp (please, notice the name!), it should be in a book of G. Budworth...

I need references to cite...


Sorry Mark I remembered it but I didn't remember where...
Here it is, I found it:
G. Budworth, The Complete Book of Decorative Knots, (Reed Consumer Books Limited 1998) p. 34.
It is interesting what Budworth says in the History section:
"The pre-eminent knotting writer Clifford W. Ashley, whose monumental The Ashley Book of Knots is every avid knot tyer's bible, does not single this knot out either to state to that it is original (so presumably it was already known when he published his book in 1944), or to name it. I call it the Blimp* because it resembles a Zeppelin bend (see The Hamlyn Book of Knots) but is smaller and softer. *Blimp: a light, non rigid aircraft such as a barrage balloon."

Ciao,
s.

roo

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Re: Knot Bio: Zeppelin bend
« Reply #32 on: November 03, 2017, 03:15:06 PM »
from knotsaver...
Quote
Hi Mark,
about the Blimp (please, notice the name!), it should be in a book of G. Budworth...

I need references to cite...


Sorry Mark I remembered it but I didn't remember where...
Here it is, I found it:
G. Budworth, The Complete Book of Decorative Knots, (Reed Consumer Books Limited 1998) p. 34.
It is interesting what Budworth says in the History section:
"The pre-eminent knotting writer Clifford W. Ashley, whose monumental The Ashley Book of Knots is every avid knot tyer's bible, does not single this knot out either to state to that it is original (so presumably it was already known when he published his book in 1944), or to name it. I call it the Blimp* because it resembles a Zeppelin bend (see The Hamlyn Book of Knots) but is smaller and softer. *Blimp: a light, non rigid aircraft such as a barrage balloon."

Ciao,
s.
Thanks knotsaver.  That may not even be the first time "Blimp Knot" shows up.  It can be hard to nail down "firsts" especially in knotting.

Mark, I think you'd like reading Budworth's works.  It's definitely worth your time.
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Dan_Lehman

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Re: Knot Bio: Zeppelin bend
« Reply #33 on: November 03, 2017, 09:30:03 PM »
from knotsaver...
Quote
about the #1062, please notice that the connection of it and the "false" Zeppelin was noticed (I don't know if for the first time) by Mandeville in KM #18 p.12 and it was in his Alphabend the letter/bend "N" ("the Neat 2c New ( Cf. A(BoK) 1062)".
Okay - will amend paper and cite Mandeville - thank you.
I'll note that Percy mis-illustrated (and more?) the so-called
zeppelin knot as the "false" in a book, which might have
pre-dated IGKT.

Quote
I also need details of the background of the Zeppelin eye knot. I know Xarax always points out that if you have tied a bend you by definition have also tied its corresponding eye knot. I have never quite agreed with this position...I think the eye knot version of a bend is a related derivative. For a start - one is an eye knot while the other is an end-to-end joining knot. Loading profile is also different. Hoping that roo can assist - he seems to know a lot about this corresponding eye knot (and it is also featured on his website).
Well, this is simply the case if one envisions that,
when tying by forming one end's part first and
then reeving into this the 2nd end
, one will have
formed a potential eye knot if using the 1st
one's tail as the "2nd end" --a structure will exist
at least when devoid of eye-loading (when who-knows
will happen).

(I don't see this as other than obvious --hardly earth-shaking
insight (any more than "Asher's, Law of Loop, Hitch, & Bight").)

As for "reading Budworth's works," one must realize that
there are a whole batch of B.-authored books (for a while
it seemed like several-per-annum!), and some are not
really/entirely of his mind --he has both been called in
to substitute where another author went in communicado,
and to have someone finish for him when his health
sidelined him (and publisher had deadlines --goodness,
can't wait to get yet one more Knots-101 book out to join
the worthless masses!).


--dl*
====

agent_smith

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Re: Knot Bio: Zeppelin bend
« Reply #34 on: November 04, 2017, 05:04:42 AM »
reply from roo...
Quote
Mark, I think you'd like reading Budworth's works.  It's definitely worth your time.

This may be true if I had the following:
[ ] time (which is rapidly running out)
[ ] money (to buy the books) - followed by the big delay in waiting for shipping/books to arrive by post
[ ] which of the myriad Budworth books to purchase?...there's many - and I would have to sift through a lot of content/material to find what I am looking for (which comes back to time...) I do have one of his books ('The Complete Book of Knots') - which is just so so and not very helpful to my cause.

A far better approach is to request assistance from the knotting community and to receive technical feedback with source materials to cite from. This would:
a) save valuable time (I don't have to go hunting for info that others already have and know about)
b) save unnecessary expenditure of money which is fast dwindling
c) be more efficient use of the networking power of the internet / social media

Hopefully, that all makes sense?

Mark G
« Last Edit: November 04, 2017, 05:05:34 AM by agent_smith »

roo

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Re: Knot Bio: Zeppelin bend
« Reply #35 on: November 04, 2017, 06:27:21 AM »
reply from roo...
Quote
Mark, I think you'd like reading Budworth's works.  It's definitely worth your time.

b) save unnecessary expenditure of money which is fast dwindling

Mark G
For item b, if you have convenient access to library, that may save some cash.
« Last Edit: November 04, 2017, 06:28:30 AM by roo »
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knotsaver

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Re: Knot Bio: Zeppelin bend
« Reply #36 on: November 04, 2017, 10:21:36 AM »
Hi all,
have you ever tied and compared ABoK #1453 and ABoK #584 (=#575)?
please, do it!  ;)
(you could also want to tie and compare the Sheet Bend and Ashley's stopper  :) )
Ciao,
s.
p.s. I continue to believe that Ashley didn't know the Zeppelin and/or the Hunter's Bend but who knows...

agent_smith

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Re: Knot Bio: Zeppelin bend
« Reply #37 on: November 04, 2017, 03:31:35 PM »
from roo (per being helpful and just providing info in good faith)
Quote
For item b, if you have convenient access to library, that may save some cash.

Oh dear me...

Hmmm - I guess what you are really saying is..."go do your own digging?"

roo

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Re: Knot Bio: Zeppelin bend
« Reply #38 on: November 04, 2017, 04:11:11 PM »
from roo (per being helpful and just providing info in good faith)
Quote
For item b, if you have convenient access to library, that may save some cash.

Oh dear me...

Hmmm - I guess what you are really saying is..."go do your own digging?"
I didn't mean it THAT way.  Libraries have saved me some cash in the past when I wanted to preview books.
« Last Edit: November 04, 2017, 08:57:55 PM by roo »
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agent_smith

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Re: Knot Bio: Zeppelin bend
« Reply #39 on: November 05, 2017, 04:01:15 AM »
New version uploaded...

VER 0.7 (05 NOV 2017) is uploaded.

Link to page: http://www.paci.com.au/knots.php (at #4 in the table)

Changelog:
[ ] added photo of Charles Rosendahl on page 2
[ ] amended page 3 - added new citation ref to Desmond Mandeville and false Zeppelin bend
[ ] new content on page 4 - showing 3 different bends and various starting bases (with chirality)
[ ] new content on page 5 - advanced a theory of how the Zeppelin works and image of a toggled bend
[ ] added content on page 6 (references to #46 overhand knot)
[ ] added a tying method to page 10

...

I need assistance to advance this paper further!

Mark G

agent_smith

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Re: Knot Bio: Zeppelin bend
« Reply #40 on: November 06, 2017, 08:47:35 AM »
New version uploaded...

VER 0.8 (06 NOV 2017) is uploaded.

Link to page: http://www.paci.com.au/knots.php (at #4 in the table)

Changelog:
[ ] amended anatomy of Zeppelin bend photo image (hopefully Xarax will stop shouting at me now  :o  )
[ ] amended page 8 (removed #1425A Riggers bend...inserted image of Zeppelin bend to enable side-by-side comparison)
[ ] added new content to page 9 (bends and their corresponding eye knots)
[ ] added reference from 'roos' website and supplied link to his Zeppelin eye knot
[ ] added new content to page 10 - tying methods
[ ] added new content to page 11 (symmetry) - this one was difficult since it involves complex geometry and its myriad of definitions


Hopefully roo will reply faster than you can say "roo'...and either instruct me to remove the link to his website or provide some sage words of wisdom re the Zeppelin eye knot.

...

I need assistance to advance this paper further.
I am struggling with geometry and trying to describe the geometric symmetry of the zeppelin bend....so anyone who is a wiz at geometry I'd like to hear from you :)

All other feedback/critique is welcome!

Mark G

knotsaver

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Re: Knot Bio: Zeppelin bend
« Reply #41 on: November 06, 2017, 09:05:22 AM »

VER 0.7 (05 NOV 2017) is uploaded.

Changelog:
[ ] new content on page 4 - showing 3 different bends and various starting bases (with chirality)
[ ] new content on page 5 - advanced a theory of how the Zeppelin works and image of a toggled bend

Hi Mark,
first of all, it's growing nice!  :)
oh you just posted another version...
but these 2 notes are still valid:
p.4 could it be interesting a lightly lateral view of the Zeppelin and the Hunter?
p.5 I think that the image of the toggled bend is wrong, as far as I know the toggled bends without the toggle are not bends! see ABoK #1494 [edit: (#1521 - #1524, but #1522 is a bend! ("Adjusted in this way, it never jams and is less liable to spills.")]
...
about the point of symmetry of the Zeppelin Bend, it is internal at the centre of the Bend...see Miles' diagram b8 p.88. [edit: your picture (left up) at p.11 is right because the transformation in that case changes the sign of all the coordinates (x,y,z) -> (-x,-y,-z).  -z indicates a crossing change]

Ciao,
s.
« Last Edit: November 06, 2017, 10:27:17 AM by knotsaver »

agent_smith

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Re: Knot Bio: Zeppelin bend
« Reply #42 on: November 06, 2017, 01:04:07 PM »
New version uploaded...

VER 0.8a (06 NOV 2017) is uploaded.

Link to page: http://www.paci.com.au/knots.php (at #4 in the table)

Changelog:
[ ] added acknowledgements to contributors
[ ] added content to page 9 (reference to lack of historical data on Zeppelin eye knot)
[ ] added content to page 10 (more details about tying methods)
[ ] added content to page 11 (symmetry) - tried to improve the X/Y axis and added red dots to aid in interpretation of point inversion symmetry
also added information about Roger E Miles and his publication.

...

What I still need:
1. A copy of BobThrun's article in the caving newsletter from 1967 showing the Zeppelin bend (per Dan Lehman?)
2. More content for page 11 - need an expert in geometry to write additional content.
3. Need historical info for the Zeppelin eye knot (roo?)
4. An explanation of how the Zeppelin bends works (per Xarax?)

Mark G

roo

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Re: Knot Bio: Zeppelin bend
« Reply #43 on: November 06, 2017, 04:18:13 PM »
3. Need historical info for the Zeppelin eye knot (roo?)
I think it was in the general knotting community awareness as soon as the Zeppelin bend became widely-known.  The problem was that it was difficult to communicate a simple tying method to the average rope user who may consider even a bowline to be a little tricky.  Difficult-to-tie knots tend to get ignored.

After a few private conversations about the Zeppelin loop, I tried to put together a follow-the-leader method that might be memorable (March 2003).  A few years later (June 2010) I included another method that drew off the b & q technique for the bend in hopes of consolidating techniques for those who wanted to reduce the mental burden of memorization.

link: http://notableknotindex.webs.com/zeppelinloop.html
« Last Edit: November 07, 2017, 04:56:48 AM by roo »
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roo

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Re: Knot Bio: Zeppelin bend
« Reply #44 on: November 06, 2017, 06:42:48 PM »
4. An explanation of how the Zeppelin bends works
This is going to be difficult.  Many bends that have a very similar geometry have radically different properties.
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