Author Topic: Knot Bio: Zeppelin bend  (Read 6326 times)

agent_smith

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Knot Bio: Zeppelin bend
« on: October 28, 2017, 05:35:27 AM »
Just announcing that I have finally got around to producing the first of what I hope to be a limited series of Knot Bio's.

To kick it off, the first Knot Bio is about the Zeppelin bend.

Link to page: http://www.paci.com.au/knots.php (at #4 in the table)

This is a work-in-progress...and I of course welcome any comments, and constructive feedback.

The history of the zeppelin is unclear...and I am trying to present all the known facts. I am trying to find the Knotting Matters edition that features the report from Dr Giles Camlin (in relation to Charles Rosendahl dismissing any knowledge of the 'zeppelin bend'). Cant seem to find the report...

Mark Gommers
« Last Edit: October 29, 2017, 11:17:34 PM by agent_smith »

agent_smith

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Re: Knot Bio: Zeppelin bend
« Reply #1 on: October 28, 2017, 02:43:20 PM »
VER 0.2 (28 OCT 2017) is uploaded.

Added new images.
Added new content.
Received an amendment notice from Xarax - error fixed.

...

This is still very much a work in progress...
Contributions from interested persons are most welcome :)

Mark G

agent_smith

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Re: Knot Bio: Zeppelin bend
« Reply #2 on: October 29, 2017, 08:00:36 AM »
Hello 'roo',

I am hoping that you might consider commenting on the zeppelin bend - and perhaps making a contribution to the Zeppelin bend paper?

I imagine that the zeppelin bend is a favourite of yours?

I would be pleased to add any content/commentary that you might have re the zeppelin bend (so this is my 'RSVP' to you...ball is now in your court).

Mark

siriuso

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Re: Knot Bio: Zeppelin bend
« Reply #3 on: October 29, 2017, 04:10:31 PM »
Hi Mark, Zeppelin Bend is not composed with interlocking loops. Please ammend your first paragraph.

yChan

siriuso

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Re: Knot Bio: Zeppelin bend
« Reply #4 on: October 29, 2017, 05:39:27 PM »
Hi Mark, your third paragraph is talking about HB, it is not relevent to ZB. I suggest you should delete it and leave for further HB Bio. Here are some information from G. Budworth's "The Knot Book". I beleive the Poor Man's Pride is exactly as ZB.

yChan

siriuso

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Re: Knot Bio: Zeppelin bend
« Reply #5 on: October 29, 2017, 06:08:57 PM »
Hi Mark, here are ... for reference.

yChan

Dan_Lehman

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Re: Knot Bio: Zeppelin bend
« Reply #6 on: October 29, 2017, 09:52:26 PM »
>  the first of what I hope to be series of Knot Bio's.

I wonder how many knots you think you can get a bio
for? --even this first attempt is highly dubious, but one
I'd have thought could be nailed, at least if the U.S. Navy
did indeed originate or even just insist on using the knot
(and might have some documentation...).

Alas, not yet known ...,

--dl*
====

agent_smith

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Re: Knot Bio: Zeppelin bend
« Reply #7 on: October 29, 2017, 11:19:30 PM »
Quote
Hi Mark, Zeppelin Bend is not composed with interlocking loops. Please ammend your first paragraph.

yChan

Hello yChan. Which version are you reading? VER 0.2 corrected a few typos (this one included).
Please ensure you review the most up-to-date versions otherwise we will be chasing ghosts :)

But thank you!

Mark

agent_smith

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Re: Knot Bio: Zeppelin bend
« Reply #8 on: October 29, 2017, 11:30:49 PM »
Quote
Hi Mark, your third paragraph is talking about HB, it is not relevent to ZB. I suggest you should delete it and leave for further HB Bio.

I wanted to include #1425A (Phil D Smith's) Riggers bend because it is based on inter-locking overhand knots - and because it is the closest knot structure to the zeppelin in ABoK. But, I may try to put most of the current info in a footnote, so as not to hijack the papers theme.

Quote
Here are some information from G. Budworth's "The Knot Book". I beleive the Poor Man's Pride is exactly as ZB.

yChan

Thanks for this...but, Budworth's knot book was first published in 1983.
The 'Boating' magazine article was published in 1976.
So the 'Boating' magazine illustration on the zeppelin pre-dates Budworths 'Poor man's pride'.

And yet, Budworth also refers to a Desmond Mandeville - who allegedly discovered the 'zeppelin bend' in 1961.
As for tying method, Budworth refers to Ettrick Thompson who discovered a better tying method depicted at fig 87 (B-D).

...

By the way, your attached images are a little hard to read - very compressed...I have to try a different way to see them clearly.

Mark
 
« Last Edit: October 29, 2017, 11:47:53 PM by agent_smith »

agent_smith

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Re: Knot Bio: Zeppelin bend
« Reply #9 on: October 29, 2017, 11:37:14 PM »
from Dan Lehman...
Quote
I wonder how many knots you think you can get a bio
for? --even this first attempt is highly dubious

A very limited number!
[ ] Zeppelin bend
[ ] Lee's link Bowline
[ ] #1047 F8 eye knot (and here I might even include your 'Lehman 8', + your 'strong/weak forms') - a lot to examine with this knot (also that it is not 'PET'). I will also address the attitude to adding a 'stopper knot' to 'enhance' security (which I think is of dubious benefit).

Not sure why you think this is "highly dubious"...I am inviting IGKT members to contribute.
I would have reasonably thought that you would regard the zeppelin bend as ripe for a new (fresh) perspective.
I see this as an opportunity to do some good work for benefit of all knot tyers... for our collective knowledge bank.

I have the motivation to do it - and I think I can get the photography right to do it justice.

Mark
« Last Edit: October 29, 2017, 11:41:20 PM by agent_smith »

agent_smith

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Re: Knot Bio: Zeppelin bend
« Reply #10 on: October 30, 2017, 12:41:50 AM »
There is a reference to the Zeppelin bend in 'Knotting Matters' #8 (July 1984) at page 22.

The article is titled: 'Hunting Zeppelins' and was authored by Percy Blandford.
Once again, the author refers to Charles Rosendahl.
There is also mention of the 'Poor mans pride' - and Budworths 'The Knot Book' and Ettrick Thompson's new method of tying the zeppelin bend.

There is also further reference to 'Knotting Matters' #4 (July 1983):
A Desmond Mandeville article titled 'The Alphabend' (starts at page 2) which includes the 'Poor mans pride' knot (aka zeppelin) illustrated at 'P'.

However, all of this was pre-dated by the 'Boating' magazine article authored by Lee and Bob Payne in Jan 1976.


Mark
« Last Edit: October 30, 2017, 03:16:19 AM by agent_smith »

knotsaver

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Re: Knot Bio: Zeppelin bend
« Reply #11 on: October 30, 2017, 02:26:41 AM »
I wanted to include #1425A (Phil D Smith's) Riggers bend because ...

Mark,
you could write "Parallel (knot) Bios", as Plutarch wrote "Parallel Lives"!  ;)

Quote
Quote
   Here are some information from G. Budworth's "The Knot Book". I beleive the Poor Man's Pride is exactly as ZB.

yChan
...
And yet, Budworth also refers to a Desmond Mandeville - who allegedly discovered the 'zeppelin bend' in 1961.
...
Mark

Mandeville, in KM #18 - Jan 1987 (On Tramble Territory with Desmond Mandeville p.11-15), re-named the "Poor Man's Pride"/Zeppelin (letter P) with "The Izzard" (letter Z) explaining in a note: "Izzard is the Old English name for letter Z. The bend is the Zeppelin Bend (Rosendahl Bend, Poor Man's Pride)". In the article there is a reference to Guild's Chart 55 too. You can find it at
http://www.surreyknots.org.uk/55-rosenthal-zeppelin-knot.htm
but there the name is: "Rosenthal Zeppelin Knot"!?
"Rosenthal"? ???
(By the way, at p.15 (last page of Mandeville's article) there is an interesting Appendix: "The category of Handedness")

Ciao,
s.
« Last Edit: October 30, 2017, 02:38:55 AM by knotsaver »

agent_smith

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Re: Knot Bio: Zeppelin bend
« Reply #12 on: October 30, 2017, 03:26:22 AM »
Thanks knotsaver.

But what I really need to find is anything on the zeppelin bend that pre-dates the Jan 1976 'Boating' magazine article authored by Lee and Bob Payne.
The earliest known published information I have is this Jan 1976 article.

Do you know if there is anything that pre-dates that Jan 1976 article? If yes, I would like to know about it :)

Also, I really need to know which 'Knotting Matters' issue has the content from Dr Giles Camlin which disputes the Joe Collins account (and in so doing, may cast doubt on the whole Lee and Bob Payne story).

As for #1425A Riggers Bend - no, I don't think I will write a separate/distinct 'Knot Bio' on this...
But I think that it should be compared to the zeppelin bend in a knot Bio - on account of their same /class/order/family (but differing 'genus').
[ ] #1425A belongs to a 'genus' that is inter-woven overhand knots
[ ] Zeppelin belongs to a 'genus' that is inter-linked overhand knots

I am waiting for Xarax to supply written content explaining the differences between these 2 bends - and to explain why the zeppelin is jam resistant while Riggers bend jams.
Xarax has previously posited that terminology and definitions are tricky with these types of bends...for example:
[ ] inter-linked
[ ] inter-weaved/woven
[ ] inter-connected
[ ] superposed / superimposed

So for example, #1425A Riggers bend is 'inter-woven (overhand knots)'.... while zeppelin bend is 'inter-linked' (overhand knots)?

English language is complex...and I am a native English language speaker...and I struggle :)  !!


Mark
« Last Edit: October 30, 2017, 08:35:10 AM by agent_smith »

agent_smith

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Re: Knot Bio: Zeppelin bend
« Reply #13 on: October 30, 2017, 05:56:40 AM »
VER 0.3 (30OCT 2017) is uploaded.

Change-log:
Re-drafted wording on first page.
Added new content and images at page 4 (these are the most difficult images I have ever photographed...but I think I captured the 3D aspect reasonably well).
Added new image and content to page 10 (interesting comparison of prusik loops).

...

This is still very much a work in progress...
Contributions from interested persons are most welcome :)

I need to find that information from Dr Giles Camlin in Knotting Matters! Somebody please help :)

Mark G

roo

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Re: Knot Bio: Zeppelin bend
« Reply #14 on: October 30, 2017, 07:06:12 AM »
This photo is very interesting:

https://i.pinimg.com/736x/c7/cd/cf/c7cdcf78601372964aec99219495e5e1--zeppelin-airship-friedrichshafen.jpg

It's labeled as Charles Rosendahl's Los Angeles ZR-3 with what looks to be a bunch of cruciform knots. :o  It's too zoomed out to be sure.  It could just be handles of some sort, too.  Most of these old photos are taken from a distance, sadly.

(from: https://www.pinterest.com/jensvilly/gamle-fly/)

« Last Edit: October 30, 2017, 07:07:39 AM by roo »
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