Author Topic: Bowline accusations in accident (wrongly)  (Read 1100 times)

agent_smith

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Bowline accusations in accident (wrongly)
« on: October 15, 2017, 11:02:16 AM »
I am in the process of updating my analysis of Bowlines paper and was generally surfing the web looking for the usual nonsense, wild speculation, ill informed commentary and general stupid remarks about Bowlines...

when I found this article: https://www.thebmc.co.uk/climbing-wall-death-due-to-knot-failure

The story itself (while tragic) is entirely consistent with one inescapable fact... simple human error...but the 'Bowline' (which type is not made clear - and I doubt if anyone actually understands that there are in fact many different types of Bowlines, and some can positively be regarded as secure).
The author of the source article (Ed Douglas) was largely accurate however, his comment re adding a 'stopper knot' to ensure security is incorrect.

Then for an additional amusement - I continued reading the various posts by readers shouting about Bowlines blah blah blah.

And then - I finally happened about a voice of reason in the wilderness...by none other than our good friend knudeNoggin - at reply #19.
A fine fellow he is :)

Its worth the read - but make sure you take the time to read knudeNoggin's comments - which are entirely accurate in my view.


Another related article is here: https://www.outsideonline.com/1911861/bye-bye-bowline-time-new-knot  (written by Adam Roy 13 Dec 2012)...although this one is absurd.
It discusses the John Long accident and David Rothman death...and also quotes a passage from Duane Raleigh.
...

As soon as someone just uses the term 'Bowline' as a blanket all encompassing declaration that such a knot is (allegedly) dangerous - I usually roll my eyes.
The author of this article from 'Outsideonline' is pulling on emotional strings - which are contemporaneous with the release of the coroners report (and so people are emotionally charged).

I am trying to find a copy of the coroners report...no luck searching on line...have written email to coroners court to request a copy.

Mark G
« Last Edit: October 15, 2017, 11:34:30 PM by agent_smith »

SS369

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Re: Bowline accusations in accident (wrongly)
« Reply #1 on: October 15, 2017, 06:51:58 PM »
So, it begs the question: Knot failure or tyer complacency? Seems the latter in these cases. So many times the knot performed well enough.
And then comments like, "complicated". If it is complicated to your partner, take the time to review it yourself as many times as you need.

If one is going to do death defying work or recreational daredevil-ing,  one truly ought to stay on their game. Heck, your life (or another's) depends on it.

SS

Dan_Lehman

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Re: Bowline accusations in accident (wrongly)
« Reply #2 on: October 17, 2017, 01:59:40 AM »
Cf. also p.8 of
www.thebmc.co.uk/bmcNews/media/u_content/File/climbing_walls/BMC%20Climbing%20Wall%20Directory%202012.pdf

So, it begs the question: Knot failure or tyer complacency?
Seems the latter in these cases.
So many times the knot performed well enough.
There's another question, though, that ought to arise in us ::
Why are there no reports of untied fig.8 eyeknots? !!
--i.e., where the user reports or is known to have favored
that knot?  Because non-tying any knot is the same no
matter the intent; yet despite commonality of esp. the
fig.8 eyeknot I'm unaware of reported non-tyings
(Now, the dead might keep a secret, but for friends'
testimoy, or an incompleted knot where the base '8'
remains.)

Quote
And then comments like, "complicated".
Yeah, that one is striking, for a knot that is a simple marriage
of loop & bight !!  --which, as I've asserted many times
previously, likely arises from the gosh-darned boneheaded
copycat stOOpid presentation of the knot's backside obscuring
the turNip's crossing point!
  (If Xarax & I agree on
this --we do-- then it must be right.   :P  )

And, yes, that *kN* fellow does have keen vision!   ;D

Were there one agreed way to extend the bowline it might
be possible for the climbing (et al.) community to give it a
name and happy use it --one can must about the "Yosemite
bowline"
being this (but aka "mountaineer's bowline" as well).
For the fig.8 eyeknot also has a less fully engaged form
where the tail makes less than an '8', just a 'U'/bight finish
(Ashley has this ; but I don't have ABoK w/me now);
yet that's not well known or named and so there's no stopping
there to bemoan it if it's found wanting, then seeing the fig.8
as an extension to it (with a "Yosemite finish" one could say!).
But "bowline" does stop at the minimum, and come myriad
extensions, or adding a stopper (and both).

Interesting ("telling" ?!) that DAV's recommendation for an
extension of the common knot isn't brought up more often.

.
.
. (out of time)

--dl*
===

sgrandpre

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Re: Bowline accusations in accident (wrongly)
« Reply #3 on: October 24, 2017, 06:05:53 PM »
There's another question, though, that ought to arise in us ::
Why are there no reports of untied fig.8 eyeknots? !!

There are. 

There's a lot of debate over whether Lynn Hill intended to tie a bowline, or whether she tied the stopknot part of a figure 8 and forgot to rethread it.  Half the sources report it one way and half the sources report it the other way.

Less ambiguously, here is a report of someone falling off a wall due to a poorly tied figure 8 knot.  They only left an inch or two of slack, and the knot worked itself loose while they were climbing.  They took a dynamic fall and the knot released. 
http://publications.americanalpineclub.org/articles/13201213850/Fall-on-Rock-Incomplete-Tie-In-Knot


There are several more personal accounts of figure 8 knot tying errors in Lynn Hill's AMA thread on Reddit a few years back.  In two cases, a partially threaded figure 8 knot held weight when loaded and a fall was miraculously avoided:
https://www.reddit.com/r/IAmA/comments/33n893/i_am_lynn_hill_the_first_female_climber_to_free/cqohf7v/?context=2
https://www.reddit.com/r/IAmA/comments/33n893/i_am_lynn_hill_the_first_female_climber_to_free/cqn68zr/