Author Topic: Re: My Working Notes 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8  (Read 16181 times)

siriuso

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Re: My Working Notes 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8
« Reply #75 on: June 11, 2018, 08:32:19 PM »
Hi dear all,
Here is the link of "My Working Notes" Part 8. I would like to request our moderators to move this thread to "New Knot Investigations" for comments and investigation.

https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/12OuijixfVDF5vWwUfgs-T66DRXoDauQS?usp=sharing

Happy Knotting

yChan
« Last Edit: June 11, 2018, 08:34:24 PM by siriuso »

agent_smith

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Re: My Working Notes 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8
« Reply #76 on: June 13, 2018, 02:34:05 PM »
I have had a quick look at some of these structures...
Of course, my eyes and ears immediately noticed the false Zeppelin bend (what you incorrectly call 'false hunters bend') at tying method #16 and #17.

Obviously, this particular knot structure is not 'new' - it has been published before.
All you have done is apply some trick tying methods that induce instability as soon as load is applied...and the knot undergoes forced transformation into the resultant 'false Zeppelin'.

I am not clear on exactly what revelation this brings to the table?

It doesn't tell us anything new about the underlying structure of the false Zeppelin bend.

I might also point out that Phil Smith discovered the (#1425a) 'Riggers bend' and published it much earlier that Edward Hunter. So technically, your use of the name 'Hunters bend' is incorrect.

Also, the Phil Smith 'Riggers bend' (#1425a) is built from 2 interlinked loops whereas the Zeppelin bend is built from 2 superposed loops.
This has been pointed out to you previously...which you seem to willfully ignore?

At the end of the day - I think your work has merit - but you should be cautious with posting (or requesting) in 'new knot investigations' if some content isn't in fact new.

I am of the view that a new tying method doesn't constitute a 'new' knot.
The resultant knot is still the same - regardless of how you arrived at it.

siriuso

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Re: My Working Notes 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8
« Reply #77 on: June 14, 2018, 06:19:10 PM »
Hi dear all,
Thanks for your opinion on "My Working Notes".

After my Part 2 had been posted in "Chit Chat", I have had an idea to seperate the files of "The Other Tying Methods" and the "New Bends", but in view of the fact that people have read the formate of Parts 1 and 2, I put aside this thought.

From the very begining, "My Working Notes" were always distributed to my friends with covers (see attached photos), but not in this forum. You might find that the contents were classified into "Other Tying Methods of Some Bends" and "New Bend", that are what "My Working Notes" presented. Eventally as there were some discussions taken place after Part 7 posted, this thread was agreed to moved to "Knotting Concepts and Explorations". Later, I in seeing that the discussions were over and come to an end, I posted the Part 8 and requested to move the thread to "New Knot Investigations" for the reason that it contains "New" bends and I am expecting for comments and investigations as well as those previous posted Parts.

I deeply apologised for confusing you all, especially Mark. He has given me good points and arose my intention to seperate the topics.

I will work on two new folders, they are "The Other Tying Methods of some Bends" and "New Bends", and post to this forum under relevant topics (Please advise). They will be including the contents of bends from Parts 1 to 8 and some more to come. Some amendments would also be ready to make for I have found some of my so called "New" bends were mentioned/published in this forum before my work, and would like to use the names so mentioned in this forum until further discovery.

Happy Knotting

yChan

siriuso

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Re: My Working Notes 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8
« Reply #78 on: June 16, 2018, 12:20:48 PM »
Hi dear all,
One more file of the Corrick Bend was added to the Part 8, please up-date. Thanks.

yChan

siriuso

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Re: My Working Notes 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8
« Reply #79 on: December 30, 2018, 08:04:53 PM »
Hi dear all,

I have updated "My Working Notes" to three folders as in the following links. They are "My New Bends", "My New Knots" and "My Other Tying Methods of Some Known Knots". I sincerely need you comments on my "New" knots and like to share with you all and will update as required.

https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/118JW083wRZ52FlhlAjF-lUvAdCpiE9fB?usp=sharing

https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/12Z4bBbLrCJw3dEzems9QOvp_G4hgBKJP?usp=sharing

https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/1C8vtR72jJp9NjHiOR_qA9336We11Jt4g?usp=sharing

Happy Knotting
yChan

siriuso

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Re: My Working Notes 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8
« Reply #80 on: April 13, 2019, 08:31:28 PM »
Hi dear all,

I have just updated 2 of my working notes "My New Bends" and "My Other Tying Methods of Some Knots". Some "New" Bends and some tying methods are added/revised in these folders. Some previously submitted old files whick now marked with a suffice 'CC' are to be superseded by the new files with the same names.

I appreciate you would take time to view these folders. Your comments are always valuable to me. If any of my knots are found appeared previously, please let me know. I will be very much appreciated and revise my working notes. The links are :

"My New Bends" : https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/118JW083wRZ52FlhlAjF-lUvAdCpiE9fB?usp=sharing

"My Other Tying Methods of Some Knots" :  https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/1C8vtR72jJp9NjHiOR_qA9336We11Jt4g?usp=sharing

Happy Knotting
yChan

agent_smith

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Re: My Working Notes 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8
« Reply #81 on: April 29, 2019, 03:29:41 PM »
That's a lot of work you have done yChan - and it is appreciated!

If I may offer some critical feedback:

I think the way in which you present all of your loop constructs (from which the end-to-end joining knots are built) could be tabulated/arranged in a more meaningful way.

Take #1053 Butterfly eye knot as an example...

This knot can be boiled down to the following key points:
1. It is built from inter-linked loops of opposite chirality (S+Z or Z+S) - it can't be constructed from same chirality loops.
2. Both tails exit in the same direction in parallel.
3. It is an asymmetrical bend.
4. It is appears to be totally jam resistant when through loaded, but jams when eye loaded.
5. In eye knot form, it is TIB (can be tied without access to either end).
6. It is close to #1425A - in that if one sides chirality is reversed, you end with #1425A (which is how Phil Smith arrived at his 'Riggers bend').

In relation to the above, it is useful to show the Zeppelin and #1425A Riggers bend side-by-side with #1053 Butterfly. This makes the information more meaningful.

The way in which you currently present your data, meaning tends to be lost.

With regard to some of your tying methods - the reality is that many have initial transient dressing states that quickly transform and/or capsize into their final stable form. when load is applied. I'm unclear on how these unstable transient dressing states are useful for understanding the final (stable) form of a knot?
In other words, what is the point of the myriad of transient forms that undergo a transformation as soon as load is applied?

It reminds me of the trick ways of tying #1010 Bowline - the end result is still #1010 - the trick tying method doesn't tell us much about the final form (eg I refer you to #1014). The are other ways of arriving at #1010...but the end result is still #1010.



siriuso

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Re: My Working Notes 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8
« Reply #82 on: April 29, 2019, 08:01:48 PM »
Hi Mark and all,

Thanks to Mark for his feedback. I am very much appreciated.

As to Mark' suggestion, I have already had files in categorizing these bends. I will post them in another thread shortly within this week. Hope that they will be useful in knotting.

I believe knotting is an art and tying methods are art too. We may/can tie a knot in a certain method/way. Why not know more. One can play a song with piano. Why not allow others to play the same song with some other instruments.

Happy knotting
yChan

siriuso

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Re: My Working Notes 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8
« Reply #83 on: May 09, 2019, 09:04:16 PM »
Hi dear all,

I have just updated 2 of my working notes "My New Bends" and "My Other Tying Methods of Some Knots". Files marked with a suffice 'CC' are to be superseded by the new files with the same names. Some new bends are added.

"My New Bends" : https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/118JW083wRZ52FlhlAjF-lUvAdCpiE9fB?usp=sharing

"My Other Tying Methods of Some Known Knots" :  https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/1C8vtR72jJp9NjHiOR_qA9336We11Jt4g?usp=sharing

Happy Knotting
yChan
« Last Edit: May 13, 2019, 11:29:36 AM by siriuso »

siriuso

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Re: My Working Notes 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8
« Reply #84 on: May 10, 2019, 06:16:05 AM »
Hi dear all,

I have updated 2 folders. Some 'New' bends and some other tying methods are added to these folders. I have also posted a folder 'Bends Classed By Starts' in another post. Please enjoy.

Happy Knotting
yChan

siriuso

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Re: My Working Notes 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8
« Reply #85 on: June 30, 2019, 08:16:49 PM »
Hi dear all,

I have updated 2 folders. Some 'New' bends and some other tying methods are added to these folders. Please enjoy.

"My New Bends" :
https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/118JW083wRZ52FlhlAjF-lUvAdCpiE9fB?usp=sharing

"My Other Tying Methods of Some Known Knots" : 
https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/1C8vtR72jJp9NjHiOR_qA9336We11Jt4g?usp=sharing

Happy Knotting
yChan


siriuso

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Re: My Working Notes 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8
« Reply #86 on: January 16, 2020, 04:21:05 PM »
Hi dear all,

I have updated my folders "My New Bends", "My New Knots" and "My Other Tying Methods of Some Known Knots". For easy reference, a list of amendment are attached to each folders and is also attached herewith.


"My New Bends" :
https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/118JW083wRZ52FlhlAjF-lUvAdCpiE9fB?usp=sharing

"My Other Tying Methods of Some Known Knots" :
https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/1C8vtR72jJp9NjHiOR_qA9336We11Jt4g?usp=sharing

"My New Knots" :
https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/12Z4bBbLrCJw3dEzems9QOvp_G4hgBKJP?usp=sharing


Happy Knotting
yChan
« Last Edit: March 16, 2020, 08:15:59 AM by siriuso »

agent_smith

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Re: My Working Notes 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8
« Reply #87 on: January 17, 2020, 01:55:59 AM »
yChan,

Thanks for all your work.

However, have you ever pondered why you don't seem to be getting any replies or interaction from anyone?
Surely you must be asking yourself this question.
Even Xarax has not commented (privately) - and this is saying something.

...

Okay - here is my opinion.

Your work constitutes big data - and big data can get lost in translation very easily.
The human brain is a complex and remarkable organ - but the human brain needs to find order and patterns to make sense of the information it sees/hears/feels.

Solutions:
1. Forget about the various tying methods that induce deliberate instability - which simply arrive at the same end result anyway.
For example, the Zeppelin bend boils down to two (2) superposed loops of opposite chirality.
And with this fact, you can either arrive at a Zeppelin bend that is S/Z chirality or in Z/S chirality.
In your pdf file titled "OTZeppelinBendop.pdf" - you show the final S/Z form (front and back) - but offer nothing beyond that?
All 3 of the tying methods you show to arrive at a Zeppelin bend induce deliberate instability - yet all arrive at the same end result.
You should simply show the two superposed loops (with opposite chirality) - with one base pair arriving at the S/Z form and the other base pair arriving at the Z/S form.

In my view, your work on the Zeppelin bend is not a full and proper presentation of the Zeppelin bend - because you presume that there is only the S/Z form.
And you do not show the arrangement of the two superposed loops - with their chirality reversed - to arrive at the S/Z and Z/S final forms.

Another example is the #1053 Butterfly eye knot (TIB version).
There are multiple ways of tying this knot - but all arrive at the same finish line...which is the #1053 Butterfly.
Do any of these tying methods tell us about the geometry of the knot and how it works?
It actually all comes down to two (2) loops - which are inter-linked and of opposite chirality.
There is a close relationship between #1425A and #1053...and this is best seen via examining the base pair loops for each knot.
The various tying methods don't reveal this or provide insight into the underlying geometry...

2. With all of your end-to-end joining knots (ie 'bends') - you show no relationship to corresponding eye knots.
All end-to-end joining knots have four (4) possible corresponding eye knots.
EDIT NOTE: 6 if you take into account chirality...for example, there are a total of six (6) possible eye knots that correspond to the Zeppelin bend in all of its Z/S and S/Z forms. And there are 6 possible corresponding eye knots derived from the Butterfly bend (when accounting for both Z/S and S/Z geometries).
This can be confusing though...because it is the general convention to show a bend in one geometric form (eg Z/S) and then derive the corresponding eye knots from that form.
But, if you take into account all of the possible chiralities, it turns out there are six (6) corresponding eye knot to a bend.
You'll see this is virtually all knot books...in that the author will only show a bend in one chirality - and not show its opposite chirality.

You should have a closer look at your latest presentation of 'Crossing knot South and North'.
In reality, your presented 'eye knots' correspond to the #1439 Carrick bend.

3. I believe that you should show end-to-end joining knots and their corresponding eye knots in the same view/page of your document.
This would make your data more meaningful.
In any case, several experienced IGKT members have already discussed at length the correspondence between end-to-end joining knots and their related eye knots.
Why not venture down this path?
I even recall Xarax (years ago) declaring that if you had tied a 'bend' - you had also (by definition) also tied its corresponding eye knot!
I am not 100% with him on this - as it can get rather complicated - and I think it is best to just tie them and show the direct correspondence (in side-by-side imagery).
This is also in part due to the fact that some of the time, one of the corresponding eye knots can be weird looking - eg one of the corresponding Zeppelin eye knots is very close the #1062 (per Ashley).

4. With all of your loop diagrams that create an end-to-end joining knot, it seems pointless to show arrangements that deliberately induce instability.
Fact - all end-to-end joining knots have their SParts (standing parts) axially aligned (ie 180 degrees in opposition). They are never aligned at right angles...
Many of your loop base pairs are rotated out of axial alignment - which simply induces an instability as soon as load is applied - and the knot will automatically (by default) try to axially align itself.
It therefore makes no sense to show this? I think you should only present your loops in base pairs with the SParts in axial alignment.

5. I think you need to reconsider your understanding of what a 'loop' is.
A loop has chirality, an eye does not.
All of your base pair loops (for tying bends) will have a particular chirality - which is either S or Z.

What you describe as a 'loop knot' is really a 'fixed eye knot'. The resulting fixed eye has no chirality, its simply a round eye (like an eye bolt from a hardware store).
Now, if the 'eye' was not fixed - ie its was slipping...then it would be a noose.

For example, the simple #1010 Bowline is a fixed eye knot (the eye is non slipping).

6. You offer no information about jamming or security.
For example, the Zeppelin bend is totally jam resistant while the #1425A Riggers bend jams.
#1053 derived Butterfly bend is jam resistant when through loaded from SPart to SPart (ie axially loaded) but its corresponding eye knot (#1053) jams when eye loaded.
Again, the Butterfly bend has 4 corresponding eye knots - only one of which is 'TIB' (#1053).
I would also suggest investigating which corresponding eye knots are 'TIB'. Is there a rule for TIB eye knots... ie why are some TIB and others not?

7. You offer nothing about symmetry.
For example, the Zeppelin bend has point inversion symmetry.
How would you describe #1452 Ashley bend in terms of symmetry?
Does the type of symmetry play a role in security or jam resistance?
None of this is investigated.
Jam resistance is certainly a measure of a particular knots 'efficiency' - and is a desirable quality.
...

There are some typo errors in the naming of one or two of your pdf files - and a few other errors - but I wont go into further details...
« Last Edit: January 19, 2020, 09:54:40 AM by agent_smith »

siriuso

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Re: My Working Notes 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8
« Reply #88 on: January 19, 2020, 10:53:47 AM »
Hi all,

My folders have just been revised. The List of Amendment (2) is attached.

Happy Knotting
yChan

Keystoner

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Re: My Working Notes 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8
« Reply #89 on: February 09, 2020, 05:00:31 AM »
However, have you ever pondered why you don't seem to be getting any replies or interaction from anyone?
I'll answer for myself.  I just tried to go through the 4 pages of this thread and all the Google Drive links. It's overwhelming.  Give me the Cliff's Notes version and point me in the direction of the practicality of all this.