Author Topic: Butterfly like knot  (Read 2654 times)

alanleeknots

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Butterfly like knot
« on: May 13, 2016, 10:31:46 AM »
Hi All,
         I have knot here, with the figure 8 interlocking and share the same characteristics with Butterfly knot.
         I haven't test it yet. not sure if it can hander heavy load or not.
     
         I couldn't find it in Ashley book , I am sure some one must have tie it before.
        .謝謝 alanlee

Dan_Lehman

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Re: Butterfly like knot
« Reply #1 on: May 13, 2016, 06:37:50 PM »
Quote
with the figure 8 interlocking and share the same characteristics with Butterfly knot
But sort of between this knot and the butterfly is one
that improves rather than repeats characteristics
--i.e., while retaining the TIB and some loading aspects,
it changes from being opposite-direction loading by the
SParts (i.e., one each resp. anti-/clockwise) to both of
the same rotation (as in the various interlocking-overhands
end-2-end knots such as Ashley's bend #1452.

And, being "in between", one half is overhand the other fig.8.

[edit]
THE quick way is to (a) note that your image shows in the
center the position to tie the butterfly but instead of making
an immediate (and down-through --i.e. following your arrow
in reverse just for the tuck) tuck of the eye bight,
you go around and come up-through, thus forming 8s.
Well, rotate the white/left side over, which will have IT
become an 8, and make the immediate, down-through
tuck of the eye bight :: that is what I'm referring to.


Just start the tying with the traditional "twirly flip" method
of twisting the rope to the state immediately prior to
bringing the eye bight around and tucking through,
and at this point rotate the one half/side that can be
turned without losing integrity and thus you'll be setting
that side up to become a fig.8 upon the ...
THEN bring the eye bight around and tuck through.

(I suppose a similar variation can be made with your start
and the turned half will form a (sort of) fig.9 (not that
I see advantage to this --just the following of a Rule to
further instantiate a Series  ;)  ).

It is probably best to have the fig.8 half be what is
NOT loaded qua eye knot, as it's added half turn will
be more resistant to potential jamming.


--dl*
====
« Last Edit: May 13, 2016, 06:42:12 PM by Dan_Lehman »

alanleeknots

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Re: Butterfly like knot
« Reply #2 on: May 14, 2016, 04:31:50 AM »
Hi All,
         Dan, Thanks you very much for your reply, I just dumb on follow the wording instruction, I don't get it.
         Anyway I simply tuck it in the way it is. seem like the first photo's knot has a better collars near the standing part,
         may this is the one is your preference.

         The third photo, this is a nice looking Double loop knot, I can only show you how to tie it with the standing part,
         for TIP method probably will never find a easy way to tie this loop. also this loop can't tie with PET method.
         謝謝 alanlee
« Last Edit: May 14, 2016, 04:43:35 AM by eric22 »

Mobius

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Re: Butterfly like knot
« Reply #3 on: May 14, 2016, 09:23:43 AM »
Hi guys,

If you both (Alan and Dan) come up with a variation you like I will trial it. As it turns out one of the projects I worked on in the last few months was a 'bi-directional in-line loop'. I trialled the butterfly (of course) as well as Owen Nutall's knot. I found a close to symmetric one I quite like and also an asymmetric one. I won't spoil the surprise on what I consider best just yet from those I mention :D

The near symmetric one of mine is shown below. I will add a more exploded view for you to look at properly.

Cheers,

Ian.
« Last Edit: May 19, 2016, 09:53:42 AM by mobius »

Tom_Zal

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Re: Butterfly like knot
« Reply #4 on: May 14, 2016, 12:50:51 PM »
Great idea Alan! Makes me want to tie the bends of the interlocked-overhand family in the figure-8 and half-figure-8 (Dan's suggestion) versions to see if any of them are tiable in bight.

Dan, great suggestion, if I understood. Since I think (?) I understood Dan's textual instructions (!!!) I am posting some pictures.

1: Twirly


2: Flop


3: Rotate right loop (the one that causes no twist between loops)


4: Tuck

Edit: Dan Lehman reminded me that the eye legs should be rotated to match the standing ends' pull. Basically the same as described for the Ashley Bend at Animated Knots. Except that that site says "Tightening naturally rotates each end around the other". I have not found that to be true - it might be for some materials.

Result:
 

If you rotate left loop (after rotating right loop) ...


... and then tuck, you get Alan's original version:


This is my first post, hope I'll be forgiven any errors...

PS: I tried to attach images (4 only, total 321 KB), the site said my attachment was too large. So I hosted the images on imgur. Any idea why the attachment/post failed?
« Last Edit: May 15, 2016, 10:48:13 PM by Tom_Zal »

alanleeknots

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Re: Butterfly like knot
« Reply #5 on: May 14, 2016, 10:25:50 PM »
Hi All,
              Hi Tom,  Nice pictures, Thanks you for helping out, I  think you got  it right.
              So far as I know, each reply only allow 4 pictures and each picture cannot be more then 100 KB.
               
              Mobius Thanks for the offer, surely you can test the knots above ,will be very much appreciate.
              謝謝 alanlee

Dan_Lehman

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Re: Butterfly like knot
« Reply #6 on: May 15, 2016, 05:50:45 AM »
Bingo, Tom_Zal !!
But the eye legs should cross as they go through
the knot, each SPart pulling the other's leg and
thus twisting them ever tighter --nicely, things
tend to go this way by the torsion put into the
material via the tying method.
(So, in your shown knot, the pink should pull the
yellow leg, the green ... the orange.  (And this is
how the butterfly / lineman's loop was recommended
to be dressed, by Wright & Magowan when the
presented it in the 1928 Alpine Journal.
ALTHOUGH, with that knot, one has opposite rotations,
and the crossing I think is what falls out via torson,
but setting might need to be done w/some care so
to not UNdo it by pulling on the wrong end in isolation.)


--dl*
====

Tom_Zal

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Re: Butterfly like knot
« Reply #7 on: May 15, 2016, 04:52:14 PM »
Dan - thanks for the note on the eye legs crossing. You made a point of the fact that, unlike the normal butterfly, in the version you suggested the standing parts rotate in the same direction. But somehow I failed to hear that or forgot.

The way I think of the tail crossing, when standing parts rotate the same direction, is to twist the tails in that same direction. Ashley Bend #1452, #1408 "evil imposter" (should have a better name), double harness bend. Also, when I tied the "figure 8 version" of the Ashley Bend (overhand knots replaced by figure-8s, like Alan did with the butterfly), the tails being crossed correctly allowed it to set into a more compact and probably more stable form.

Dan_Lehman

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Re: Butterfly like knot
« Reply #8 on: May 16, 2016, 05:30:23 AM »
Ashley's #1408 isn't any "evil imposter"; rather, it is said
to have one (viz., #1407).  With the same change
of crossing of tails in #1452, one can get a knot that jams
(lightly or severely, depending upon forces, etc.), which in
fact might be just what it wanted (e.g., in some light-duty
tying of polypropylene rope).  The double harness bend
doesn't have this ends-issue, though there are various ways
to place them (starting with going the same direction or
opposite).


--dl*
====