Here's the link for the Karen Turk accident report: http://publications.americanalpineclub.org/articles/13199808000/Fall-on-Rock-Rappel-Ropes-Knot-Unraveled-Wyoming-Grand-Teton-Guides-Wall
Thanks for making this URLink handy!
(memo to self :: copy this to computer knots file!)
IMO, the likely explanation of THIS failure is that the
first rappeller, who was HE who tied and then started
to UNtie but then RE-tied/restored --ALLEGEDLY-- the
original knot (
offset water knot / EDKACTUALLY MIS-TIED ... and maybe got an
offset fisherman's
knot instead, and this worked to failure. Else, maybe
he got a poor dressing of intended knot, loosely set,
and it subsequently rolled off. ?!
[RE-READING URLink'd ARTICLE]
1) 13th Sept, but of WHAT year ? (file access suggests "1998"?
2) WHOA, the original account --somewhere-- had quoted the two
gals as expressing doubts about the look of the knot --that it looked
odd/funny, but one gal replying "don't <mess> with it, we don't know...".
THAT note is missing from this account.
3) The account does suggest that my surmise above goes
too far, that the knot was merely "loosened" but then
re-set --so, no untucking ... . But, then again, one can
both doubt the preciseness of expression, or even the
full honesty of a party who would be looking not-so-good
were he to have admitted to partially untying the knot
--and maybe one can wonder, too, if indeed the account
(or some other record of it) has been changed for this
archive, just as the missing testimony from the gals
shows a difference!?
If indeed the knot was merely loosened and then re-set
(and in any case, rappelled on by the guy, likely heavier
than the victim by 30# or more?),
I can only surmise that the used & slightly thicker rope
was, along with some issue of dressing, a contributing
factor in the knot rolling. But that sure is a puzzling
picture, where a lighter (presumed) force --or did the gal
maybe do a jerkier, shock-laden descent?-- then makes
the knot not only roll but continue rolling!?
With respect to the current Kautz accident... it would be helpful to get more detailed info on what the surviving members of the party witnessed.
Sure would, but as of Friday post-noon (5/13) my query
to sheriff's dept. has had NO reply, alas. I should think
that those members would've been right at the knot
and should've remarked at it were it much different
from a supposed --even THIS *fact* has yet to be affirmed--
backed-up
fig.8 bend, and something that could fail
I'd think would need to be of noticeably less bulk than
that, and likely oriented differently --in short, OBVIOUSLY
new & different (and should've been questioned ; the one
testimony is of observing the victim pre-test the system,
after all).
And since the rope 'came apart' in both instances - we are left with no hard evidence.
This a non-sequitur. Indeed, one might suggest
that of any knot entailing two *halves* each of which
itself is a knot (i.e., e.g. an
overhand and not simply
a nipping turn or U-turn bight), it is more likely in the
case of spilling that one half will remain.
I remember my case of foot-vs-arm/torso tensioning
of #782 (or nearby) which CAN capsize into #1452
(and so I felt was mighty safe) where the knot spilled
--ONE side pulled out, mid-capsizing, the other
overhandremained intact. (hard to loose both, simultaneously)
The case puzzles me in various aspects;
I'm not hopeful about getting clarity, but maybe
just sharpening/refining the troubling aspects.
(E.g., is it common practice to RE-tie rap. ropes?
One remark from veteran climber I read indicates
that it is NOT --that one ties once & re-uses on
later descents.)
--dl*
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