Author Topic: Classification.  (Read 7954 times)

DerekSmith

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Re: Classification.
« Reply #15 on: January 11, 2016, 02:44:24 PM »
Other people build Knot Boards. but I'm starting a Component Board.

Derek

Dan_Lehman

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Re: Classification.
« Reply #16 on: January 11, 2016, 06:10:29 PM »
Other people build Knot Boards. but I'm starting a Component Board.

Derek
R U bored?   ;D

I should hope that we can come to easy agreement
about the aspect of classification concerning --I'll just
grab a word"-- "classes" of knots, per my remarks of
simple denoting "knot" with a circled 'X' and then the
appropriate (2, 4, 6, ...) number of "ends" (parts going
out of the knot "nub"), and an indicated loading profile
(which ends are tensioned, which are free --and perhaps
irrespective of their possible connections beyond this
simple graphical representation).

Of a single piece of material --just two ends, i.e.--,
there are just these "classes":
1. both ends free
2. one end loaded, the other free; and implicitly there
is something to resist the force, hence "stopper knot"
3. both ends loaded.

Ah, yes, then comes the case where the *knotted* material
is around an "object" (of maybe #2 above should come here
--presence of object, though not "around"), and you get thus
a binder & a hitch.

With TWO pieces of material in the knot (nevermind whether
ends connect!), there is:
 knotted pieces 1-2 & A-B
1. all ends free
2. end-1 loaded vs end-A
3.    "      "    end-B
4. end-2  ... end-A
5. end-2  ... end-B
6. end-1  ... end-2   ?
7. end-A  ... end-B   ?
8. end-1  ... ends-2+A
9. end-1  ... ends-2+B
10. end-2 ... ends-1+ A
11. end-2 ... ends-1+ B
12. ends-1 + A ... end-B
13. ends-1 + B ... end-A
14. ends (all) generally opposed (think : "net knot")

<whew : is this all?>
Many cases above will evaporate into equality
with knots having some symmetry, but I think
that they are potentially real variations (unless
my thinking is lacking, ...).
The cases 6 & 7 where one piece's ends are tensioned
and the other's not is certainly one in which I haven't
a practical example.  --musing : some case of a "long line"
into which are knotted "gangions/snoods" which lie w/o
tension until some fish takes the bait!?  --so, a case
that stands in function to one in which those snoods
would be hitched onto the longline, usally.
--and, as is the case with various knots, this shows that
loading profiles can change per physical *knot*.


 - - - - - - - - - -

Now, more to putting out aspects if *knot*, let me grab
another term --viz., "type"--, and again suggest that there
are general ways in which knots work, per knotted components:
A. *halves* are tied and then pulled together to bind
B. a knot is formed in one piece and then that form is traced
 by a second "piece" --which might belong to same physical rope--
 to form the final knot
C. (of two or more pieces) components are interlocked

For examples of the above, I've noted
A. fisherman's knot
B. water knot
C. Ashley's Bend #1452


--dl*
====

DerekSmith

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Re: Classification.
« Reply #17 on: January 12, 2016, 09:18:22 PM »

... 'BC' (bight component) - could be 'collar structure' for instance. I had thought that there was an implied acceptance of 'collar structure' in place of bight component...?


Just a quick response on this point Mark,  I used the term bight, to signify that the component was not simply a collar, but it also included two legs or tails.  I think Ashley might have called it a #32 Component - a 'Closed Loop Component'.  In many respects, the two legs are far more functionally important than the 180 degree collar (but of course, they all play a part in the BC functionality).

You will see how the legs become important in the BC description and when it is compounded with other functional components.

Derek
« Last Edit: January 12, 2016, 09:28:51 PM by DerekSmith »

DerekSmith

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Re: Classification.
« Reply #18 on: January 12, 2016, 10:08:51 PM »
Just a quickie on how I am producing the component images.

I took  a length of cored braid, removed the core and replaced it with a length of 3mm soft modelling wire.

I then tied a target knot using one length of normal braid and one length of 'stiffened' braid.  I dressed and set the knots, then removed the normal braid, leaving me with the component for photography.

Below we have the Myrtle Core and one turNip removed to leave an image of the turNip Component.

Derek

NB  of course, this comes in left and right hand flavours...  I believe this ine pictured might be called  the Z form
« Last Edit: January 13, 2016, 11:00:07 AM by DerekSmith »

Dan_Lehman

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Re: Classification.
« Reply #19 on: January 13, 2016, 08:49:42 AM »
Below we have the Myrtle Core and one turNip removed to leave an image of the turNip Component.
//
 I believe this ine pictured might be called  the Z form
Rather, it could be called "the granny tangle" !
But it's NOT the Myrtle, as that has loops of
opposite (Z + S) handedness (and in reverse
produces the superior anti-bowline variant sometimes
called the "Swedish bwl / bollard loop" IIRC.

--dl*
====

knot rigger

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Re: Classification.
« Reply #20 on: January 13, 2016, 09:56:35 AM »
...
I took  a length of cored braid, removed the core and replaced it with a length of 3mm soft modelling wire.
...

Brilliant!

DerekSmith

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Re: Classification.
« Reply #21 on: January 13, 2016, 12:23:51 PM »
Below we have the Myrtle Core and one turNip removed to leave an image of the turNip Component.
//
 I believe this ine pictured might be called  the Z form
Rather, it could be called "the granny tangle" !
But it's NOT the Myrtle, as that has loops of
opposite (Z + S) handedness (and in reverse
produces the superior anti-bowline variant sometimes
called the "Swedish bwl / bollard loop" IIRC.

--dl*
====

Mr L, I am proud to know you.

If anyone was going to pick that up, it was going to be your good self (or perhaps Roo, but I havn't heard from him is such a long time).

Yes, indeed, it is tied with two Z form turNips and the true Myrtle is tied with one of each.  It exposes the fact that I first made the knot, then took it apart to photograph the turNip.  Then I put the top turNip back in to make the photo for that post - AND I USED THE WRONG FORM - and worse, I did not spot it and even called it the Myrtle.  So thank you Dan for spotting and picking that one up.

You will notice that I have renamed the image in that post as the FALSE-myrtleCore.  I have done this because both the S-S and the Z-Z versions have a massive positive Cogging mechanism, and in anything other than hairy cord, are quite capable of completely spilling under load.

Derek

KC

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Re: Classification.
« Reply #22 on: January 24, 2016, 04:48:32 PM »
A loaded rope is a raw piece of open power machinery w/o safety devices;
- rope can do great work and can save or take a life instantly.
.
Every Action/inAction to a force loaded line/ or setup for a loading
- dictates a mechanical command to the architecture of the mechanics
- you can stack commands to invoke different forces, sometimes unintentionally
(like adding raw elements, components etc. does in daily walks of life)
.
i try to squint with different eyes, so the obvious form blurs some, and 'see' the force flow and how it changes.
i think we should look at these things by their mechanics, then YES!  Many are grouped by discipline, but examinations should be across all, to grab all instances as data/ grist for the mill and yes categorized by those definitions for study.
.
A sheet bend to self/forming an eye is a bowline, but the forces flow thru the 'vessel' of the rope(s) are in different patterns and loading ratios.
.
i think in terms of puling both ends of a Cow Hitch is a Girth Hitch, Simple Hitch as shown same lacing as a Crossed Turn, just depends where the more intense line tension is in the same pattern.  Seeing by force, not different because tied in different form or around different host line/spar.
"Nature, to be commanded, must be obeyed" -Sir Francis Bacon
We now return you to the safety of normal thinking peoples.
~ Please excuse the interruption; thanx -the mgmt.~