Author Topic: EBSB lookalikes  (Read 3102 times)

Mobius

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EBSB lookalikes
« on: August 15, 2015, 06:07:42 AM »
As I do frequently, I fiddle with knots. The two I came up with below looked promising, then I realised that the reason they looked familiar was that they are EBSB family members.

The image on the left is nothing more than the tail of the EBSB tucked on the 'wrong' side. It has no advantages that I can see apart from the final tail turn being wider and easier to achieve in very stiff rope. OTOH, it is an uglier version of Mark's knot to me.

The image on the right is one that is more interesting. Mark (agent_smith) might be interested in it, in particular. The knot is TIB and it snugs a little better (IMHO) than the original. I also feel that the knot will be a little better at handling ring loading than the original (not tested).

I was quite excited about the knot on the right, I think it is very good. Maybe Mark will find time to have a good look at it and give us some feedback.

Apologies to Mark, the knot images I captured make the nub look fat. It snugs better than it looks  :)

Cheers,

mobius
« Last Edit: August 15, 2015, 08:02:52 AM by mobius »

xarax

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Re: EBSB lookalikes
« Reply #1 on: August 15, 2015, 09:04:15 AM »
   The disadvantage of those bowlines with a "link" ( a turn around the crossing point of the nipping loop ), is that the segment of the Standing Part "after" the link remains almost loose and essentially redundant : the collar of the bowline, helped by such the presence of such a "link" ( "before" or "after" it, it does not matter ) absorb the tensile forces very effectively, or even completely - the turns of the rope after them play almost no role. This is due to the fact that the two maximally interlinked nipping loops ( "maximally", in the sense that the one engulfs the crossing pint of the other ), the nipping loop of the bowline tied on the Standing Part "before" the eye, and the "link" , tied on the Standing Part "after" the eye, form such a tight configuration, that no tension can enter it from the one side and exits from the other ! "Linked" bowlines are too tightly woven in one place, and too loosely in any other ! Alan Lee has seen that in the case of the Alpineer s bowline ( which was very interesting, because it is TIB ), and this forced us to dismiss them : in a loaded bowline, all the segments of the nub ( although they can not be equally tensioned, of course ) should nevertheless be tense. Otherwise the nub does not become compact, or, to become so, it requires careful dressing = the pulling of the Tail End. One can not help but wonder what on Earth he needs all that almost redundant material... 
This is not a knot.

Mobius

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Re: EBSB lookalikes
« Reply #2 on: August 16, 2015, 11:22:41 AM »
"Linked" bowlines are too tightly woven in one place, and too loosely in any other ! Alan Lee has seen that in the case of the Alpineer s bowline ( which was very interesting, because it is TIB ), and this forced us to dismiss them : in a loaded bowline, all the segments of the nub ( although they can not be equally tensioned, of course ) should nevertheless be tense.

The testing by Alan is here I believe: http://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=4851.msg31628#msg31628

I can see that in the case of the Alpineer's bowline, the remaining tail and even the "link" itself may be relatively loose under load. While that is not desirable (for the reasons xarax states), I wonder whether this rather fine looking knot deserves to be dismissed for this reason alone. Another consideration is that not all bowlines with 'links' will work as well as others. Conversely same may work a lot better than others, small differences in the way the turNip and 'link' combine could make big overall differences.

I am interested to hear from agent_smith, so he can tell us how his knot performs under load.

Cheers,

mobius
« Last Edit: August 16, 2015, 11:32:08 AM by mobius »

Dan_Lehman

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Re: EBSB lookalikes
« Reply #3 on: August 17, 2015, 10:31:37 PM »
One can not help but wonder what on Earth he needs all that almost redundant material...
It seems to me that in some cases, the "all that ...
material" gives the knot resistance to complete
loosening-untying --that there is such material
abutting other material, idle loosening is frustrated,
which in a more *efficient/trim* case might see
things go further awry.  IMO, the mirrored bowline
has such a quality --for the added parts are collars
not intended (or productively made...) to be tight,
but merely present U-turns and gentle holding-in
of their collared parts; the nub is rather loose for
easy untying, but not prone to further loosening.
!?  (IMO, in some cases.)

--dl*
====

Mobius

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Re: EBSB lookalikes
« Reply #4 on: September 23, 2015, 10:38:44 AM »
I see agent_smith is about again in another thread, did you see this one Mark?  I am still interested to know if the slight change I found that makes your knot tib is good or not.

Cheers,

mobius

agent_smith

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Re: EBSB lookalikes
« Reply #5 on: September 23, 2015, 04:12:54 PM »
If it helps, here are some images of the Bowline #1010 EBSB variant.

I am having trouble looking at your photos with the blue on red background...it is ruining my eyes (sorry).

Is there any way to repost your Bowline structure loosely tied without the red background?

I think I need glasses  :'(

Mobius

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Re: EBSB lookalikes
« Reply #6 on: September 24, 2015, 03:14:54 AM »
Here is an exploded view of the EBSB TIB (tiable in the bight) version I stumbled across. I think the knot snugs well and there are no sharp turns. It also felt ok on ring loading just from having tugged on it by hand.

The TIB part is moot perhaps as the EBSB is a tie-in knot. I have no idea of a good method of tying the loop I show TIB. So unless it being TIB is deemed intrinsically valuable enough just on its own, then it might not offer much. I thought Mark would be interested to see it though.

Cheers,

mobius