Author Topic: Two rope ends with loops - release pin to keep together  (Read 9096 times)

Twine

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Re: Two rope ends with loops - release pin to keep together
« Reply #30 on: September 08, 2015, 08:08:42 PM »
Hello Knutern!

My question is - what is the correct terminology for this? When I search for "rope release pin" on internet, I just get a whole bounch pictures of wire hooks and other gear for heavy lift (made of metal). So I figured that is not the correct term for this use.

In Swedish such a toggle is called 'ters' as in "stropp och ters". I wonder, is it called something similar in Norse? The word ters sounds a bit Norwegian to me, for some reason. It must be a totally nautical term here in Sweden, because I have never heard of any kind of pin or stick on land ever called a ters.

EDIT: Never mind, I see now that Inkanyezi has already answered my question. (When will I ever learn to read all the answers before I jump in with some redundant questions?)
« Last Edit: September 08, 2015, 08:19:24 PM by Twine »
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Twine

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Re: Two rope ends with loops - release pin to keep together
« Reply #31 on: September 08, 2015, 09:41:27 PM »
I'm not sure what the purpose of ABOK 1522 is. It doesn't hold as a bend in my field testing.

I think Ashley may have made a mistake in drawing that knot. What he meant was probably a sheetbend with a toggle like in the picture attached below, from Sam Svensson's Handbok i sj?mansarbete.

I just tried the same knot with an extra turn following the first around for a second tuck, and I think that is an improvement. It is just as easy to untie, just pull the toggle out, but the knot itself seems to hold better and be a bit more resistant to shaking loose. Thickness of toggle should not be too great. Comments?
« Last Edit: September 09, 2015, 12:47:28 AM by Twine »
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Sweeney

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Re: Two rope ends with loops - release pin to keep together
« Reply #32 on: September 09, 2015, 10:01:41 AM »
I think Ashley may have made a mistake in drawing that knot. What he meant was probably a sheetbend with a toggle like in the picture attached below, from Sam Svensson's Handbok i sj?mansarbete.

I just tried the same knot with an extra turn following the first around for a second tuck, and I think that is an improvement. It is just as easy to untie, just pull the toggle out, but the knot itself seems to hold better and be a bit more resistant to shaking loose. Thickness of toggle should not be too great. Comments?

I think you,re right - Ashley made a mistake with 1522 but the toggled sheet bend arrangement tied double is ABoK 1523 which Ashley got right!

[Inkanyezi] gone

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Re: Two rope ends with loops - release pin to keep together
« Reply #33 on: September 09, 2015, 11:28:59 AM »
In Swedish such a toggle is called 'ters' as in "stropp och ters". I wonder, is it called something similar in Norse? The word ters sounds a bit Norwegian to me, for some reason. It must be a totally nautical term here in Sweden, because I have never heard of any kind of pin or stick on land ever called a ters.

Just as so many nautical terms, I think we got this one from Dutch or Low German. In Dutch, such a stick is called teers, and it is also the name of a fid for splicing, which also in Swedish is called ters (or also maerlprim - Dutch marlpriem). However knevel perhaps sounds more typical Norwegian but it relates to a German word, Knebel, which means toggle. In Dutch, knevel means mustache, Knebel-Bart in German, which has been introduced in the three Nordic languages.

http://www.encyclo.nl/begrip/teers

(Diacritics cannot be used on the forum, so "ae" in maerlprim is the next last letter in the Swedish alphabet.)
« Last Edit: September 09, 2015, 12:01:32 PM by Inkanyezi »
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Knutern

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Re: Two rope ends with loops - release pin to keep together
« Reply #34 on: September 09, 2015, 05:00:18 PM »
Hi.

Just got to read in a norse knot book. Yes, the term is "ters" and the other word I haven't seen so far. Not a word for everyday use.
I'm aiming for knots that is secure, AND that is easy to untie.

Twine

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Re: Two rope ends with loops - release pin to keep together
« Reply #35 on: September 15, 2015, 02:22:17 AM »
I think you,re right - Ashley made a mistake with 1522 but the toggled sheet bend arrangement tied double is ABoK 1523 which Ashley got right!

Yes, I see now that it was already in the picture that Groundline put up. I was just focusing too hard on what was wrong with 1522 so I didn't really look at the other toggled knots. Also, Ashleys picture of 1523 was the mirror image of what I tied (was Ashley left-handed?) and his knot was shown in a loose form, which is why I didn't immediately recognise it. Sorry.

Oh, and thanks Inkanyezi, for the discussion of the terminology. It is always interesting to know a bit about the background of the names we use for knots and such.
« Last Edit: September 15, 2015, 02:26:09 AM by Twine »
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Stagehand

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Re: Two rope ends with loops - release pin to keep together
« Reply #36 on: September 16, 2015, 05:47:32 AM »
Thanks Knutern for the problem of a bend with a quick release and thanks Groundline for introducing the idea of a toggle.  I see the toggle as an extension of the idea of an object that is tied to.  For the purpose, it serves to take a hitching knot and fashion it as a bend, a bend that is both joined at and hitched on the toggle.  Such an arrangement is available with most any simple four lobed mat where one lobe is a second line as the toggle.  The Gleipnir knot is the first ordered such mat.  Seeing the complete geometry allows for the standing ends and working ends to begin and end suitably in a Gleipnir Bend.  A similar knot but without twists is available in the 10** Bend.

xarax

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Re: Two rope ends with loops - release pin to keep together
« Reply #37 on: September 16, 2015, 08:54:36 AM »
   Both bends are not symmetric - the first ( second picture ) does not work ( it "opens up" very easily, when the Standing Ends are not crossed, as now ), but the second does, even in this form.
   However, with a little tinkering, they can be transformed and made symmetric, and then both work fine.
   They do not have a n y relation with the Gleipnir. If we need to find something to which they "resemble" structurally, we can say that they are Fisherman-like "sliding" bends, where the two halves do not slide on their Standings Ends, but on the toggle which runs parallel to them.
This is not a knot.